BGA: More on the similarities between the Jets and the Seahawks

Bent, TheJetsBlog.com

With this weekend’s Super Bowl being played at Metlife Stadium, the focus of the New York media has been shifted onto the Seahawks and Broncos, which has actually led to a refreshing change of perspective.

One angle that’s been touched on several times is the fact that there are many similarities between the Seahawks and the Jets, whether that be in terms of the way the teams are currently constituted, or in the ways John Idzik is setting up the team with the intention of building them in the Seahawks’ image. Rich Cimini wrote a thoughtful piece on that here.

After the jump, a breakdown of the main similarities that have been identified and a consideration of how accurate the comparisons are, as well as an analysis of whether there are any similarities that have been overlooked.

Direct connections

Clearly the most influential connection between the teams is the fact that Idzik is now the Jets general manager having been Seattle’s vice president of football administration from 2007 to 2012 as they built the team which would win the NFC this year. The simplest narrative would be that Idzik was going to follow the Seahawks’ blueprint to the letter, but as he says in Cimini’s articles, while there are parallels, that’s an over-simplified outlook on their approach.

There are some direct connections on the Seahawks coaching staff. Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll was the Jets head coach in 1994 having been on Bruce Coslet’s staff as defensive coordinator for four years prior to that. While that connection has been the focus on much media attention in retrospective articles this week, it’s such a long time ago that it doesn’t realistically have any impact today. Similarly, Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn coached with the Jets in 2007 and 2008 as a defensive line coach under Eric Mangini, but they’ve changed systems since then. He did coach while David Harris and Calvin Pace were on the team, but they won’t have worked with him directly very often.

Surprisingly, there are no direct Jets connections on the Seahawks roster. However, it’s worth noting that they have two key players – Quarterback Russell Wilson and Wide Receiver Percy Harvin – who we know the Jets were high on in the draft. Then-senior personnel executive Terry Bradway was said to be so high on Wilson that they referred to the quarterback as “Russell Bradway” behind the scenes. Also, the Jets were rumored to have tried to trade up for Harvin in 2009. Harvin ended up getting drafted by the Vikings and was traded to Seattle this season, although he has missed most of the season through injury. Another offensive player – Tight End Kellen Davis – was a Jets free agency target back in March.

Despite Idzik’s arrival, he didn’t get much production from any of the guys he brought over that he would have known from his Seahawks days. He did bring four former Seahawks – Brady Quinn, Braylon Edwards, Ben Obomanu and Kellen Winslow Jr. – but only one (Winslow, who ironically never contributed for Seattle) made any meaningful contributions and he isn’t expected to remain with the team beyond this year.

Personnel

One comparison the media has made is that each team’s coach would be characterized as a “player’s coach”. It’s certainly interesting to see Carroll lead his team to the big game in light of how critical the media has been of Rex Ryan’s coaching style in recent years. Perhaps this has some people rethinking their stance on whether it’s possible to be successful if that’s your style.

Another obvious comparison is the quarterbacks. Both Russell Wilson and Geno Smith are dual-threat quarterbacks with good athleticism. Of course, Wilson had a much better rookie season, although he was pretty inconsistent until midseason. While emulating Wilson might be an absolute best-case scenario for Smith in the short term and expecting that to happen would be seen as overly optimistic, there’s no denying there are some similarities in their playing style.

Also of note is the fact that, as is the case with the Jets, many people point to the Seahawks’ receiving corps as a weakness, something which they’ve been protesting is unfair during media week. However, the stats say that their leading receiver (Golden Tate) was only 46th in the NFL in receptions and 31st in yards so maybe Wilson deserves extra credit for producing when his best receiver isn’t in the top 45 in receptions or the top 30 in yards. The reality with the Seahawks is that the injury to Harvin (and an injury to Rice later in the year) limited the production of two key players and moved some other players into more prominent roles than originally planned for. Ultimately, however, using the numbers of the leading receiver is a flawed method of evaluating a quarterback because injuries can cause targets to be spread around more thinly and also because if the quarterback played better, then the best receiver would have had better numbers.

The defensive personnel is one similarity that Idzik pointed out in the quotes included in Cimini’s article. He talked about both teams being physical, fast and athletic on defense. However, they don’t really compare directly. The Seahawks’ strength is in their secondary, whereas their defensive line is founded more on strength in depth rather than impact play. Seven different players played more than 480 snaps and five more reserves combined for approximately another 300. Even if you count Quinton Coples as a defensive lineman, the Jets only used six defensive linemen all year. To make this comparison you have to get more into the strategic side of things.

Strategy

Much has been made of the Seahawks’ use of the “4-3 under” defense under Carroll. Totally at odds with the Jets “3-4 base defense” of course…right? Not at all. As I wrote back in July, the Jets base defense actually has more in common with the 4-3 over/under defenses than the more vanilla Mangini 3-4 that some corners of the media still seems to think the team employs. Even when the Jets have four linebackers standing up, their alignment is often identical to a 4-3 over/under defense, just with the open side defensive end standing. The Jets regularly open the game in this look and actively use pre-snap shifts to vacillate between the over and under looks, adding a further hybrid element to the defense. This involves the defensive tackles shifting, often so that the nose tackle ends up in a two-gapping role.

Drafting Sheldon Richardson and tweaking Quinton Coples’ role so that he was almost exclusively on the outside provided the Jets with ideal personnel to employ this look and the easy narrative would be that Idzik brought it with him from Seattle, but the reality is that the Jets have been using these packages throughout the Rex Ryan era.

On the offensive side of the ball, Idzik made note of the fact that the teams are both strong up front and it’s true that they each employ a solid running game led by a back capable of making yards after contact. The Seahawks beat the Saints in the first round of this year’s playoffs while Wilson completed just two-of-nine passes in the second half. There aren’t many teams that could win a game against a playoff team with numbers like that, but the Jets are arguably one of the others.

One major difference, though, was the fact that the Seahawks maintained this solid running game despite all their lost man-hours on the offensive line. The Jets’ linemen didn’t miss a single game due to injury, whereas none of the Seahawks started every game and they had to change their alignment several times. We don’t know for certain that the Jets would have struggled with guys like Oday Aboushi and Caleb Schlauderaff forced into significant spot duty, but it does seem probable.

Building a contender

The Seahawks were 11-5 last year and then went 13-3 this year as they made the Super Bowl. However, looking back to the three years prior to that, they had to endure some futility. They won five, seven and seven games over the three previous seasons – although in the middle of those three seasons, they did win a division title and a first round playoff matchup.

The Jets will enter next year with eight, six and eight wins over their previous three seasons and will be hoping next year is where they can start to take things up a notch as the Seahawks did last year. The Jets are definitely a team in a position to invest in some talent (whether that be in terms of extending and retaining their own guys or via the draft and free agency), rather than being in a position where they need to consolidate their position and try to maintain continuity without compromising their cap situation.

The key to the Seahawks’ rebuilding process has been building through the draft. Scoring major contributors like Richard Sherman and Russell Wilson in the middle rounds is a surefire way to bolster your talent, but the Seahawks also had some good depth from their recent drafts. Like the Colts, their 2012 improvement came about with several rookies starting and contributing which obviously affords them the financial flexibility to make other moves. For the Jets, while it perhaps won’t be reflected in the win-loss column until next season – and there were undeniable teething troubles across the board – they did get significant contributions in terms of playing time from five of their 2013 picks, and should have plenty of picks this year too.

Cap situation

That brings us to the cap situation for each team. As you’d expect, with the Jets just getting started in the retooling process, they have much more cap room than the Seahawks. According to OverTheCap.com, only six teams have fewer cap dollars committed to 2014 than the Jets, whereas only six teams have more cap commitments for 2014 than the Seahawks. That doesn’t tell the full story, because the Jets have a few contracts they’ll be purging to create additional space and the Seahawks have a few key guys who will need to be extended soon.

For the Seahawks, it will be interesting to see whether the media overreacts to their upcoming cap situation, because it’s analogous to what the Jets went through over the past few seasons. They’re actually in a pretty similar situation to the Jets from 2010 to 2012, but should be absolutely fine for at least a few more years because (a) they don’t have many needs, (b) they have a few bigger deals that can be purged with younger and cheaper guys capable of replacing those players and (c) they have some scope to restructure deals to create more space and extend their window if required. Add to that the fact that Wilson cannot (by rule) get an extension until after next season and the Seahawks have plenty of scope to keep their roster loaded for years to come, especially if they keep hitting on draft choices which will make their more higher priced talent expendable down the road.

Idzik will get a lot of praise from the media for “fixing” the Jets’ cap situation and will likely get credit for following the sort of measured approach that the Seahawks are admired for, but in reality most of the moves the Jets made in 2013 were moves that Tannenbaum was destined to make anyway, due to the in-built flexibility in most of his contracts. The biggest difference here is nothing to do with cap management, but rather everything to do with personnel evaluation. Even with a cap structure in place, if you waste significant cap room on a player who under-performs – or cap room is wasted because a high-priced player misses a ton of time with injuries – then your roster flexibility might struggle to recover. Each of those things happened to the Jets too often over the last couple of years.

What about Denver?

Due to the Idzik connection, the comparisons between the Seahawks and Jets are inevitable, but what about the Broncos? If things went slightly differently, could the Jets have ended up more like the Broncos than the Seahawks by 2014? We can only speculate on how seriously the Jets considered trying to acquire Peyton Manning when he became available a few years ago. Most people seem to think he wouldn’t have wanted to play for Ryan, but that’s total speculation too. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have relished the challenge of playing across town (sort of) from his brother? It’s a major “what if?” but although it’s an over-simplification to suggest that Manning IS the Denver Broncos, there’s no denying the influence he has on his offensive line, his receivers and the perception of the organization as a place free agents would want to be – and it’s now obvious the Jets could have afforded to pay him if they got rid of Mark Sanchez, as I wrote at the time.

There are other similarities too. The Broncos employed the 4-3 under extensively over the last two seasons when Von Miller was available and he has produced incredible numbers, mostly from the strongside linebacker position that Calvin Pace plays, not – as you might expect – from the weakside edge rusher spot played by Coples.

Conclusions

It’s interesting to look at the parallels between the Jets and Seahawks. Obviously, Seattle must be doing something right and the fact that the Jets are doing some similar things is a positive sign – as is the fact that the man now in charge of the Jets played an influential role with Seattle.

The biggest difference between the teams right now, other than how far along they are in their efforts to build a contender, is the fact that Seattle’s roster is much deeper due to the success they’ve enjoyed in the draft in recent years. With up to 12 picks coming up this year, along with a favorable cap situation to try and fill some needs, the Jets have a good chance to start to make up some ground in that area.

Also critical is the fact that Seattle is getting consistently good play from the vital quarterback position. One way or another, the Jets will be hoping to close that gap too next season, but as we’ve seen in recent years, that’s easier said than done.




36 comments
dabronx
dabronx

Interesting to point out that Seattle hasn't picked a WR/RB in the first round in years. I would not be shocked if we do not pick a WR or TE this May. From everything I'm reading Izdick has the "best player" philosophy when it comes to drafts.

madbacker
madbacker

@bent from studying defenses across the NFL I wanted to add an observation that is growing across the league with 4-3 teams speacifically and supports you comments of similarities between the Jets and Seahawks. Yes teams like the Bengals, Seahawks, Broncos utilize a 4 front. A closer look at their personnel in their base set shows you the following:

Seahawks

RE Clemmons 254/Avril 260

DT McBane 311

DT McDaniel 305 (most likely in the 3 tech

LE Brynat 323


Denver

RE Phillips 255

DT Kighton 335

DT Williams 313

LE Jackson 293


Cincy

RE Johnson 270

DT Peko 322

DT Geno 303 (typically and in 3 tech)

LE Dunlap 280


in each case their 4 front exhibits aspects of the old 46, in which there are 3 BIG dlinemin occupying 4 Olinemen, and 1 rusher going 1 on 1 with the LT. Furthermore (before injuries) in each case these teams employ a "rush" SLB who typically has limited coverage assignments (quoting Harrison and Bruce Irving directly) in Denver it's typical Von Miller, Seahawks Irving, Bengals its Harrison. These guys generally play the run and rush the qb and on clear passing plays, they have their hands down with one of the DT coming off the field (which is logical as it keeps the best pass rushers on the field). In each of these cases these personnel groupings only afford the teams to employ 2 real LB (not a converted DE or 3-4 OLB). So while these 4-3 teams are "cover teams" the base personnal and assignments operate closer to a 3-4 than their front would hint.  Considering that in each of these cases the LE (who is right infront of the SAM) is larger then typical DE, RT's have their hands full which gives the SAM a more ideal match up against the HB/QB as they are less likely to have to deal with the RT. This scheme has proven to be so effective that the Bears are already reporting that they are looking to adapt their D into a similar scheme and are planning to move McClellin from DE to SAM (same role are Irving, Harrison and Von Miller) because as a DE he was over powered by tackles.  Basically what should be taken away from this is that even though they are a 4-3 they are looking at players with similar skill sets that would function well in a base 3-4, like what the Jets run.

idothis2
idothis2

Seems to me that Seattle copied the Jets 2009-10 blueprint not the other way around. The 49ers, Seattle, Giants, Jets and a few other teams show that smashmouth football still has a place in this pass happy league

bklyndude
bklyndude

The key for Seattle was being fortunate with Russell Wilson with a third round pick and Richard Sherman and Kam Chancellor with fifth round picks.  Also,  trading for Marshawn Lynch was hugh.  Getting lucky with later draft picks producing like high draft picks is what every team hopes to happen.

johnnyl65
johnnyl65

Our defense it built on power and athleticism while Seattle's is built on Speed.  Their Qb has field vision ,makes timely,leading throws and takes care of the ball,ours doesn't. The true strength of  their defense is the DB's ours is our front four. They have an unstoppable  three down RB we have a pretty good two down back. Idzik is kind of where the similarities between us and Seattle begin and end.

harold
harold

Welcome back Bent!


As always good analysis.  It seems you may have put that in for me about having the 46th ranked Wr in terms of receptions and 31st in receiving yards (probably not but I know have posted it enough in defense of Geno), I certainly agree it cannot be an excuse for turnovers.  It does however, have a tremendous impact on the ability of the team to produce consistently in the passing game.  If you look at the Seahawks they have long stretches within games where because of the lack of a passing game they cannot sustain offense.  The one area where Geno has to and has begun to get better is turnovers.  If he continues that trend-line we will be able to as you stated close the gap with not only the Seahawks but the entire NFL.


Lastly, I assume you did not mention the secondary because the are very dissimilar at the moment.  On defense adding speed to the middle of our defense (ILB) and improving the secondary is also equally as critical to our success next season.  Hopefully we can address these in F/A so we can get pretty immediate production.  Draft developmental guys for the long-term as you suggest to take over for the vets and maintain cap flexibility.

a57se
a57se

@idothis2  

Agreed about the Shehawks copying the Jets blueprint or should I say Rex' blueprint.


harold
harold

@johnnyl65


You may be oversimplifying too much.  In the grand scheme of things if one QB it took him 8 games to learn to take care of the ball and another it took him 12 games to learn to take care of the ball is that a big difference?


Russell Wilson made mistakes and played pretty inconsistently over his 1st 8 weeks or so.  Geno played pretty inconsistently over his first 12 games.


Both finished their rookie seasons playing well and offering their fan bases hope.  The Seahawks were a much better team than the Jets so they ended up in the playoffs.


Our defense needs to be more consistent on the back end and in the middle where to you point johnnyi65 we do need a speed infusion.  Hopefully with a full season and a 2nd offseason our front office can make the changes we need. 


As Jets fans we need to be more realistic with our expectations.  If we had Wilson we would have screamed for him to be benched after 7 or 8 games and would've called for Flynn.


I can hear the quotes now "If we spent 26 million on him why do we have him on the bench and rookie who is losing us games starting, just doesn't make any sense"


Or my favorite "The rookie can learn from the sideline, because Flynn will give us our best chance to win now"


Patience guys, it really does matter.

a57se
a57se

@harold  

 " It seems you may have put that in for me about having the 46th ranked Wr in terms of receptions and 31st in receiving yards (probably not but I know have posted it enough in defense of Geno), I certainly agree it cannot be an excuse for turnovers"

Bent also stated the argument was 'slippery'  "because if the quarterback played better, then the best receiver would have had better numbers.".........

johnnyl65
johnnyl65

@harold  You can't over simplify,you can over analyze IMO and patience is for rotational guys,practice squad players and bench players not starters. When Geno is consistently avg. that's when I'll be satisfied not before.I'm all for speed on the 2nd and third level of defense but want power up front like we have now. I don't want the Jets to be modeled after Seattle but more like a SF. I also was never on the Flynn bandwagon he was a one game wonder.

a57se
a57se

@harold  

"Russell Wilson made mistakes and played pretty inconsistently over his 1st 8 weeks or so.  Geno played pretty inconsistently over his first 12 games."

Let's see:

Wilson was 129 of 210,  61.4% for 1466 yards with 10 TD's and 8 INT's during his first 8 games. Seattle was 4 and 4


Geno was 179 of 327, 54.7% for 2256 yards with 8 TD's and 19 INT's during his first 12 games. The Jets were 5-7


Let's now compare the rest of their rookie seasons!


Wilson was 123 of 183, 67.2% for 1652 yards with 16 TD's and 2 INT's and Seattle went 7-1 over these games.


Geno was 68 of 116, 58.6% for 790 yards with 4 TD's and 2 INT's and the Jets went 3-1 in those games.


From these stats I'd say Russell Wilson was just flat out a better QB. His 'inconsistent' play was in some ways better than Geno's improved play at the end of the season and Wilsons' improved play was 10 times better than anything Geno has shown.

You could argue that Seattle had a better team and therefore it was easier for Wilson to play well but I would argue the Jets would have been a better team but their QB play held them back as evidenced by their 3-1 mark to close out the season...imagine if Geno had played as well as Wilson did for Seattle the last 8 games of his rookie year!

harold
harold

@a57se @harold


Which I acknowledged.  This is why I spoke about the turnovers.  Keep in mind when Bent made this statement he was talking as much about Wilson as Geno. 

madbacker
madbacker

@Hanknaples  once again you are WRONG, the ravens were founded as a 4-3 team and remained so until 2002. It wasn't until Marvin Lewis left at the end of 2001 for the Bengals and Mike Nolan took over as DC (in 2002, prior to going to the 49ers) that the Ravens switched to the 3-4, then switched back to the 4-3 and it was Rex who ultimately ran the Hybrid.


So that its clear and there is no more confusion as to who the coaches were.

Marvin Lewis Ravens DC from 1996 - 2001

Mike Nolan Ravens DC from 2002-2004 (serving as the Ravens wr coach in 2001)

Rex Ryan Ravens DC 2005-2008


Jack Del Rio was the LB coach under Lewis1999-2001

Mike Smith was the LB coach in 2002 and DL coach for 1999 to 2001 side by side with Rex who was also the Dline coach from 1999-2004.


Marvin Lewis, Del Rio (two of the teams i pointed out using hybrid aspect) along with Smith have always used s 4-3. Only briefly in Jacksonville towards the end of her tenure as a HC did del rio experiment in a 3-4. ONLY in Atlanta now as the DC is Nolan using a 4-3 (but he openly says they employ multiple fronts)


As far as Bart V Ray, if you don't recall how that REALLY went down then there is no point to talk to you.


"The job of a 4-3 defensive end is not limited to rushing the quarterback and no I am not venting." Once again you are flat out wrong, there are college coaches who openly say that they teach their DE's to play contain and play only the run. There are NFL coaches who openly say "it's easier to find DE's who can rush but finding ones who can play the run is hard" I have played on college and semi pro teams, where coaches have schemed for games where the DE's weren't rushing the qb. Answer me this question, if you are right was it is a known role as a a 3rd rush end? You are entitled to your opinions but if you are going to call anyone out please have your facts straight,

madbacker
madbacker

@Hanknaples @madbacker  “When Pace came to the jets he made it perfectly clear that he did NOT want to play with his hand in the dirt on most downs at the defensive end spot. He was better suited for being an outside linebacker. THroughout his tenure with the jets he has played more standing up than on the ground. There is no way Richardson can play the left defensive end spot on a 4-3 defense.

1)Yet throughout his tenure here, Pace has played with his hand in the ground.

2)It is your opinion about Richardson, as it is proven to work in other 4-3 fronts.

“Once he is stopped going forward which means once he is stopped in his initial momentum he is DEAD! As a defensive end in the 4-3 the player must be flexible in the running game and passing game. He also must be able to move well once he is stopped at the line of scrimmage to continue in pursuit of the play. Richardson is not going to move around and slide with the offensive tackle.

1)I have played DE, and your comment baffles me. This comment “As a defensive end in the 4-3 the player must be flexible in the running game and passing game.” Tells me you are just venting, throughout the NFL there are countless DE’s who kick inside to play DT with a 3 down specialist coming in to play DE on passing downs.

“The same is with Wilkerson who could handle some plays at the end spot on a 4-3 but not all of them. Richardson  is then  out of the play so there is no way he could be a Red Bryant who has played in the 4-3 defense his entire life and again Bryant is more of a defensive tackle than a defensive end.

1)Yes Red has played in a 4-3 his whole Pro Career, I am not sure about his time in Texas A&M. However you clearly didn’t read what I wrote or didn’t understand the point. I pointed out that the Seahawks 4 front operates more like a 3 front. Red Bryant until being moved to DE under Carrol, was always a DT. Now he is the HEAVIEST 4-3 DE, thus adding support that the Seahawks’ 4 front operates more like a 4 front or as I also pointed out incorporates 46 aspects.

“If you are so concerned about the linebackers then tell me who are the linebackers the jets have right now that will work in the scheme. I only see one true linebacker the jets have and that is Harris. Pace needs someone to help him with the load on the other side.   Davis is overrated and NOT what everyone made him out to be.

1)Since you are dead set on attacking me, you might want to brush up on my own opinions before you do. I have been one of the biggest supporters of Bart Scott and understand his role opposite Harris and Ray Lewis. I have not been supportive of Davis and do believe they need to upgrade on the positions, which is a point I highlighted. Harris himself can’t carry the load of being the cover ILB or the Ray Lewis role. The players who have excelled in this role include Daryl Smith (Ravens), D’Qwell Jackson (Browns), Sean Lee (Dallas), currently no one does it well in New Orleans, which is one of the problems that Rob faces. As far as who does work, we can only hope Coples continues to improve. Pace needs to be upgraded on as the SLB or possibly moved inside to replace Davis. Both of our ILB need to be upgraded on. Thinking of Pace purely as a pass rusher tells me you are looking at our 3-4 like we were playing the Schott/Parcells 3-4 which is best viewed by looking at the Steelers and what the Pats were and what the Texans will become.

“Von Miller is not strong enough to play the run (hold the edge) and rush the passer for a full season. He is great when he has two mammoth defensive tackles next to him and Elvis Dumervil on the other side. Even with this he wasn't able to break through the Ravens offensive line last year in the playoffs. Oher and McKinnie had their way back there with the Broncos defensive line.

1)Which is why I said HYPOTHETICALLY. Also thank you for pointing out again why the Denver 4-3 operates in a similar manner as a 3-4.

“Seattle has been a 4-3 team from the inception of their franchise. That is their identity. Denver has been a 4-3 defense since their last superbowl win. THe Bengals have been a 4-3 defense since their inception. Rex Ryan has always been a 4-3 coach. He doesn't want to make it look like that. He wants to have everyone play a 3-4 looking defense but I am going to say this AGAIN! When the chips are on the table and he needs to make a stop he will go to his 4-3 defense. He doesn't have the trust of his players especially when they programmed to play a 3-4 or 4-3.

1)This comment proves you are just out to start trouble. Unless you are showing you don’t know the difference in how the 4-3 can be played. Seattle has always been a cover 2 4-3 going back to Holmgren and I was pointing out that the way they are playing the 4-3 now is similar to a 3-4. I proved that clearly. Denver is the Birth place of the 3-4 dating back to the Orange Crush. Yes they have been a 4 front since their last superbowl but again I am addressing how they play the 4-3. Zimmer the new HC of the Vikings has experience as a 3-4 and 4-3 but prefers the 4-3. AGAIN I was addressing how they have adapted the 4-3 to include 3-4 aspects. As for Rex, you clearly don’t know what you are talking about. Rex converted the Ravens to a 3-4 his first year as DC and it didn’t work, ultimately Ray Lewis complained and they went back to the 4-3 then they got Ngata and converted back to the 3-4.  Rex runs a 3-4/4-3/46/52 D aka a multiple front defense. He utilizes more sub packages than anyone else, including his brother, Pettine, Bod Sutton and Pagno. “When the chips are on the table and he needs to make a stop he will go to his 4-3 defense. He doesn't have the trust of his players especially when they programmed to play a 3-4 or 4-3.” That comment is really confusing because it shows you don’t even know how Defense is played and you are blindly attacking Rex. EVERYTIME when they need to make a stop bring in as many DT’s as possible. No one has ever said they don’t trust Rex, that is just your opinion again.

madbacker
madbacker

@Hanknaples @madbacker  First of all, if you pay attention to my posts then you would know that I am well aware of the positions and roles that the Ryans employ for the Linebackers. Our SLB differences from the SLB I discussed in that in our system they HAVE to play the pass. Bryan Thomas, Calvin Pace, Adilus Thomas, Jarret Johnson, Scott Fujitia, Anthony Spencer and Victor Butler (all for Rob Ryan) played the same Role. The other SLB primarily just play the Run and Rush the qb and on passing downs move to DE. Secondly Pace was a TRUE DE when he was a first round draft pick for the Cardinals and played LE, Bryan Thomas was a first round as were all of the previously mentioned except for Fujitia (I believe he was always a SLB). What Rex has shown is that when he can’t find a jack of all trades SLB he will use a rotation to get it down, as he did with O’Canada and Barnes. If we were to move to a true 4-3 than guys like Barnes, Pace and Coples who were all college DE’s would play there. Also don’t forget in another post I made I discussed how due to the lack of finding LE’s who are strong enough to play the run and rush the passer that 3 tech DT’s are being moved to DE such as in the case with Lamarr Houston, so there is no reason to believe that Richardson couldn’t handle the duty. Furthermore, Wilkerson has played 3-4 DE his all career (college and pro), moving him to DE where he will only face 1 Olinemen would make him a monster, as in the case with Red Bryant for the Seahawks.

As for your comment about Pace and weakside, I would like to point out he was a LE mostly in AZ’s 4-3 and when the Cardinals switched to a 3-4 Pace actually played SLB, where his quickness (as you pointed out) made him a nightmare for RTs. As for his role in Rex’s system, I would agree SLB isn’t his best role but out of the OLB’s we have, he has the best cover skills so he has to play the role. As for his monster sack numbers this year, it is silly to not link his production this year to the addition of Richardson, Wilkerson’s continued level of play and Harrison emerging as a starting caliber 3-4 NT. Olinemen have their hands full dealing with these 3 and Pace benefits from that. I have to strongly disagree with Coples having the hardest job. Not forgetting the great play of our Dline, his job which Suggs and Ware did amazingly well, if you have the skill set for it. Then it will be easy; however, as you yourself pointed out it was his first year doing and and it took him some time to develop. But that is why we brought in Barnes because he does have the ideal skill set for the Rush role in our system. Now our rush role is identical to the teams I mentioned LE. The only difference is that our Rush is free to move around and put his hand down whenever he wants, and the other teams keep their hands down almost exclusively. Basically, I would agree that linebacker is our biggest need. Yet I still have to caution, finding linebackers for the roles in our system is not as easy as it is for teams who run traditional 3-4s like those from the Parcels coaching tree or the Schott coaching tree. Finding this linebackers isn’t easy, especially the SLB.

The main point of my post was to address that the defenses in the NFL are adapting to the changing talent level that is coming out of college and to the changes in how offenses are now playing. Which is resulting in 4-3 teams looking for the same guys that a 3-4 team is. Case in point all of the LE’s and SLB, minus Von Miller, would most likely play the Rush LB in our system. Given that Von Miller has played 3-4 OLB and 4-3 OLB in college, he does have more experiences in coverage than other converted DE’s his age. So hypothetically (and considering his height and weight similarities) he is the closest example to Adilus Thomas and could fill in nicely at our SLB.

a57se
a57se

@DrJonathanReefer  

Why don't you just stop trying to tell people what they can and can't comment about?

DrJonathanReefer
DrJonathanReefer

Sanchez isn't gonna be on the team anymore, you can stop being so bitter. It's okay if some people believe in Geno and it's okay for you not too. No stats or facts you guys say will turn Harold and sackdance just like nothing they say will sway you.

No need to bash geno everytime somebody tries to bring up some of the good things he did this year. Yes there were good things! Just like there was bad things. But these constant arugements over it, is getting silly.

Fact: Geno's rookie year was better or the same as 3 of Sanchez's years.

Fact: both are crappy inconsistent Qbs

Fact: only about 10 teams out of 32 have a quality consistent QB play.

Fact: every year you should draft a QB because you never know.

We all know all of these points, why we just can't dicuss the good from this year and always talk about the bad is why the media does what it does. It's starts with the fans. You guys harp on the bad, instead of looking at the good.

johnnyl65
johnnyl65

 @johnnyl65  I don't know,McCoy is a new breed of smashmouth. He's gonna run and you cant stop him. We just need our McCoy. Ivory was kind of smash mouth this year too.

a57se
a57se

@johnnyl65

I don't think the Jets offense is trying to be smash mouth under MM......

johnnyl65
johnnyl65

@a57se @johnnyl65 @harold  By SF I mean smash mouth and I also am happy with what Rex is doing it's just that SF has more pieces in place which is the style  like. What Rex could do with SF roster.

a57se
a57se

@johnnyl65 @harold 

I don't want the Jets to be like SF anymore than Seattle. I like what Rex is trying to build.

harold
harold

@a57se @harold


My point about their rookie seasons was in the 1st half they were both wildly inconsistent. 


For context if we look at the 1st 7 games I think the comparison becomes more clear.


Geno was asked to do much more over his 1st 7 games than Russell Wilson


In fact Geno passed for more yards 1723 to Wilson's 1230


He out rushed him 146 to 119


He produced more total TD's than Wilson 9 to 8.


To be fair Geno had more INT's 11 to 7.


So when I make the comparison it has a lot of merit.


Their rookie season are not equal because Russell Wilson's was better.  But they are not as dissimilar as you think either.


If Geno can replicate his last 4 games over a full season he would produce 30 total TD's 3200 yards passing and 600 yards rushing with

8 INT's.


Seeing how Wilson was able to begin to fix the issues that held him back since week 8 of his rookie year.


Let's see if Geno can continue the progress he has made since week 13 of his rookie year.


My point for anyone who is listening again is the light turns on at some point for talented players who accept coaching.  For some it takes a little longer than others.  But five games difference in one player turning it up vs. another is not a huge deal when we are talking hopefully about a 12-15 year career.



a57se
a57se

@DrJonathanReefer  

Reef, this is not about woulda, coulda, shoulda nor is it about speculating on performance. It is about what they actually did.......there is NOTHING fair about making stuff up to justify your optimism.....

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

Your statement came across as Russell Wilson = Geno Smith in their rookie years.......that was simply not the case.

harold
harold

@a57se


My point wasn't exact numbers but even your breakdown shows yards per game passing were almost equal.  TD passes is not huge stat as a team we scored 25.3 points per game over the last 4 games.   That is important if we can average 24 to 28 points per game next season we have a good chance to not only be a playoff team but also win the division. That is the point  I hope it is clearer.

DrJonathanReefer
DrJonathanReefer

In fairness if geno had 8 games where he played like he did to end the year non of us( besides you) would be complaining about those stats.

The fact that he play 4 more "bad" games doesn't let you compare the stats as fair and balanced because if "bad" Wilson or "good" geno showed up for 4 more games who knows how the stats would end up. Wilson could of had a few multi turnover games and Geno could of played a few games like the second Miami or vs Atlanta.

I think Harold's point and everyone's point that you can't seem to understand (or you do understand but we aren't allowed to say good things about Geno with you around.)) is that rookies Qbs take time to gel and even 1 season wonders like Wilson struggle and play inconsistent.

a57se
a57se

" As Jets fans we need to be more realistic with our expectations.  If we had Wilson we would have screamed for him to be benched after 7 or 8 games and would've called for Flynn."

Not really, Wilsons first 8 games were hands down better than what Geno was doing his first 8 games.......

harold
harold

Funny how you didn't reply to my post above which debunked a lot of your rebuttal about my comparison between Geno and Wilson.

Also everyone misses throws that would make there stats better. It seems a bit redundant at this point. But as I stated Geno last 4 games should everyone reason for optimism.

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

and if Geno hadn't missed all the opportunities Bent pointed out in his BGA's, his rookie season would have been on a par with guys you have tried to force the comparison on and his WR's would not have looked so bad.


harold
harold

@a57se @harold


My statement about the 86th ranked WR was more about the fact that we had no top target that played for 16 games.  So to expect a great season when the most productive person on your team basically missed 5 games is not a realistic one.

Steven Windeler
Steven Windeler

@a57se @harold Well Geno played pretty well in the games Kerley was healthy, and Kerley is a slot receiver. The other receivers all have a body of work, and that body of work would have them playing in the arena league. We'll see next year I hope, but it's safe to say that our receivers were a big part of the problem.  

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

You have never acknowledged that Geno may be the cause for us only having the 86th ranked WR....you kept blaming the WR for Geno's play.