An in-depth look at Geno in the shotgun and under center

Over at PFF, they broke down quarterbacks in the shotgun, pistol and under center.

Geno Smith struggled under center, coming in dead last for quarterbacks last season.

>> BGA: Digging deeper into Geno and the shotgun

Geno also didn’t fair very well in the shotgun, but ranked better than Eli Manning in that formation.




135 comments
UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

Don't get me wrong, the Jets are moving in the right direction and it all couldn't be done in one season, but Idzik left a gaping hole with the secondary and the oline is very shaky. Also, we needed a solid vet wr to open up Decker. We had the cap space and could have upgraded these vulnerabilities with mid level talent but did not. I guess we make the best with what we have and hope we catch a few breaks and keep building for the future, but I see some rough sledding in 2014, probably a 500 season but if a few of our draft picks pan out, we could be solid in 2015. 

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

My biggest concerns for this season starting with the Top:


1) The Oline

2) A defense that has issues against the passing attack

3) A QB controversy.

4) Ivory not staying healthy and the mediocre Powell being the brunt of our run game.

jetlife
jetlife

I found this horrifying nugget over on GGN: 


Breno Giacomini is a significant liability as a pass protector. In 2013 he allowed a defender to disrupt his quarterback on 8.9% of his pass blocking snaps. In 2012 he allowed a defender to disrupt his quarterback on 8.9% of his pass blocking snaps. How does that compare to other players? In 2011 Wayne Hunter allowed a defender to disrupt his quarterback on 8.9% of pass blocking snaps.

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

Geno not only was a raw rookie but had a horrid supporting cast around him. When Kerley is your #1 wr ,who would not even be a #2 on most teams, I rest my case!

marcus81
marcus81

this was last season, let's worry about this season, with better talent let's see if Geno can be a franchise QB, he was still 8-8 with the worst receivers in the league

tsjc68
tsjc68

While on the topic of drops, it's worth noting that Jeremy Kerley was the third most sure-handed WR in the league last year according to PFF, joining Larry Fitzgerald, DeAndre Hopkins, Rishard Matthews, Vincent Brown, and Cole Beasley with just one drop all year long.


One drop out of 44 catchable balls.  Nice job, JK. 


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/03/24/sig-stats-drop-rate-wrs/

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

"It will be interesting to see how Giacomini does in pass protection with the Jets. A lot of that has to do with the Quarterback behind him. Geno Smith does not have the pocket awareness that Russell Wilson displays in Seattle. Wilson’s scrambling ability helped keep Giacomini’s sack total down. Unless he improves in this aspect of the game, I can’t see Geno Smith pocket presence making Giacomini’s job any easier. If you take the contract details out of the equation, I don’t think I’d be too thrilled with the Jets replacing Austin Howard with Breno Giacomini. "



Brendan
Brendan

@jetlife But over those two seasons, Breno has a cumulative pass blocking grade of -4.3 grade in 749 snaps. Hunter had a -14.1 in 605 snaps. Breno gave up 9 sacks and 3 QB hits to Hunter's 11 & 11. Point being, Breno does give up pressure, he does it rather consistently, but he's had two things working in his favor: he has a mobile QB who can move around pressure from his front side and Breno recovers pretty well and doesn't give up on blocks so even when he's giving up pressure he's preventing the defender from getting to his mark. 


Breno is a starting-quality RT with room to improve if he can get more consistent in his technique. If he doesn't improve, he's still a starting-quality player at a position that the league still struggles to find adequate players for. 


Edit: Dammit, didn't see these other posts when I hit submit. 

__fense
__fense

@jetlife I love how when someone has one stat that looks bad, and every other stat looks good, it's only the one bad one that people see.


Breno had only 4 sacks and one QB hit last year, and had a positive pass protection grade per PFF. Wilson has a penchant for scrambling around, which inflates pressure numbers artificially. Defenders rarely actually got past Breno, and that's what's important. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@jetlife


Not sure where those numbers come from.  I make it 8.6% for Hunter and 8.4% and 8.3% for Breno.


More importantly, a much higher percentage of the pressure Hunter surrendered was sacks (11) and hits (11).  Breno just gave up five sacks and two hits in 2012 and four sacks, one hit in 2013.  Plus Wilson has the longest time to throw in the NFL so a lot of that pressure was while he was scrambling to keep plays alive that other QBs would not.


People forget, but Hunter actually didn't give up much pressure during the middle part of that season.  By the way, Howard in 2012 was 8.6% with 10 sacks and 10 hits ... he reduced that to 6.3% and just two sacks last year.


Breno showed his class in the last two postseasons, where he gave up just four pressures and no sacks or hits in 326 snaps.  Include those in the above numbers and suddenly he drops down to 7.3% over those two years.


Context.  It's important.

charlie duck sauce
charlie duck sauce

@marcus81 Nothing bad about the receivers. He couldn't get the ball them on a consistent basis without pretending to be a precision pocket passer minus the reads. Had he done that while using his legs instead of waiting till the final games the season, the Jets would've easily been a playoff team with a stout defense. Stop blaming the receivers.

marcus81
marcus81

@tsjc68  if that's true Kerley won't be cheap to keep, though he has to play a full season to know if he's worth it

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68


speaking of sure handed wide receivers.......how about our buddy Stephen Hill.....Mr. Reliable.....


how spiteful of me...


Each catch he makes shocks me.....literally every time.....

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 Winslow was tops at TE too.

jetlife
jetlife

@Bent Thanks for clearing that up. Admittedly I didn't dig deeper into the numbers beyond the post at GGN (I venture over maybe once a week or so).

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

@Muhammad A. Gretzky Are you kidding? The wrs Geno had would not even be 3rd stringers on most teams, and even they were injured, please dude!!!!!!! Many solid vets would fail with the crap geno had around him let alone a raw rookie, get real and slow down

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Muhammad A. Gretzky Both Geno and the WRs deserve some of the blame.  Clyde Gates and Stephen Hill weren't doing Geno many favors out there.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@marcus81 @tsjc68 Well, only one of those six sure-handed WRs actually commands a big contract.  "Not dropping balls" is only half of the getting paid equation, the other half is "being a top offensive driver and accumulating 100+ targets and 1000+ yards".


Just being a reliable passcatcher only gets you mid-level dollars.  You have to also be explosive and a focal point of the offense.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks @tsjc68 Yes, it is quite spiteful of you, all things considered.


Do you ever talk about anything else?

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

@jetlife @Bent Breno though, might not have the luxury of playing next to Colon. Also, Russel Wilson is a very elusive QB and can help any oline greatly and that is why Breno didn't give up a lot of sacks but he did give up a lot of pressures. Breno has been shown to also give up a lot of penalties and pass protection is not his strong suit. We don't know how he will fit it on the Jets oline and if the RG position is unsettled due to Colons injury status, things will be difficult for Breno and the line. 


Howard was the most consistent lineman we had last season and what helped him out was playing next to a healthy Colon right down to the end of the season. Breno might be in a totally different situation if Colon cant stay healthy.

marcus81
marcus81

@tsjc68 @marcus81  Jets offense was a lot better when Kerley played though, they where not great but where more efficient

__fense
__fense

@tsjc68 @bradysucks So wait, where is Hill? Who has a PFF membership? We know he isn't in the bottom 15 (though Stevie Johnson being there surprised me)

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68 @bradysucks


I guess you haven't picked up on the fact that I was intentionally pushing your buttons......because you called me spiteful


but okay.....


I noticed the QB debate and the key for Geno is field vision.....Good QB's SEE the entire field.....Sanchez had terrible VISION......Hopefully the game slows down for Geno......and if a throw isn't there he doesn't make it

Bent
Bent moderator

@jake100 @jetlife @Bent


Breno had Sweezy at right guard last year.  He's nowhere near as good as Colon.


And you want to talk about an unsettled RG position?  He had McQuistan, JeanPierre, Sweezy, Moffit all start games next to him in 2011 and 2012 and none of them played well enough to secure the job.  Colon is better than all of them.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@marcus81 @tsjc68 Very true.


Most sane people (i.e., not Bradysucks) can acknowledge that Jeremy Kerley is a pretty damn good WR who runs clean routes, gets open, catches the ball and makes plays happen.


The only thing holding him back thus far has been health and spotty QB/OC playing/coaching.  On a team with a better QB and playcaller, Kerley would likely already be among the more heralded WRs in the league and probably would have broken the 100/1000 club at least once.

Bent
Bent moderator

@__fense @tsjc68 @bradysucks Hill only dropped three passes in 2013.   He didn't have many targets though.  His drop rate was 67th of 94 WRs.


He halved his drop rate from 2012 which would have been equal worst (but he didn't qualify because he didn't have enough targets).

bradysucks
bradysucks

@__fense @tsjc68 @bradysucks


You really think PFF is gonna make a case that Hill is a good WR?


I am so hoping that Evans, Enunwa or Saunders take his job.......I am fine with him as a back up but there is no way the Jets are scaring anybody with Hill as a starter......(would love to be wrong about Hill......but so far that hasn't been the case)

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

@Bent @jake100 @jetlife Colon though, is not even a close to secure bet that he will not get hurt again. Also, Breno played with one of the best qbs for pocket awareness in the NFL and that greatly bolstered Brenos sack %. I am not saying Breno wont be a hold the fort type player, and it seems close to lateral move, but in my view, the edge goes to Howard as he was ascending and 2 years younger but the cost was worth it as everything is value in FAcy.  It is the big picture of the oline that really concerns me, with Breno being just one mediocre piece. We dont even know how the Colon sitchyation will play out, and who will take his place if he goes down at some point? With all the other question marks aside from Colon.....Winters and unproven depth, it is a little too hairy for my liking. Out of 32 guards Breno was graded out 15th and in the low 20s by two NFL scouts, so that is not too bad. No doubt, he is a competent starter, it is just the entire picture of the oline that is troublesome.

Pablo Bruno
Pablo Bruno

@bradysucks @__fense @tsjc68 In Hill's defense he was playing hurt all season long, started in training camp with his knees swollen up, he played o.k at the start of the season then his condition worsened towards the end, he also had to fill in for Holmes as the number 1 receiver, when everyone knew it would take him 3 years to develop, wasn't ready to be a number 1. He was the only deep threat the jets had, defenders ignored Gates because he couldn't catch a cold. Then Kerley was hurt and you had periods of when Winslow and/or Cumberland was out.  The defense all they had to do was blanket Hill with an elite corner or double team.  When Hill is healthy he is better then what he showed last year, his first year he showed promise with Sanchez as his QB.

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68


Well since Sanchez WAS the Jets starting QB from 2009-2013 it does make sense to bring him up and compare his development with Geno.....


as for Hill (who you've been wrong about)......no apologies from me,,,,,I'm hoping he gets cut....He  stinks at WR and the Jets will be improved the day he leaves.....I am.not a fan of Mr. Unproductive....


If he proves me wrong.....then good for him.....but as of now I am NO believer in Hill

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68 @Bent @__fense @bradysucks


Not true tsjc68......I respect Bent's opinion and even respect yours sometimes.......but you have a big head and you aren't always right.......and you HATE it when people disagree with you and stand their ground.....

__fense
__fense

@bradysucks @tsjc68 @Bent @__fense Standing your ground for the sake of standing your ground isn't a good thing. If you don't have rational arguments to support what you're saying, then you're just being stubborn. If you're right, prove it, and if you can't, then accept the possibility that you might not be right. 

bradysucks
bradysucks

@__fense @bradysucks @tsjc68 @Bent


Stephen Hill's lack of production is the only argument I need to support my opinions...


I need to SEE it to believe it......and what my eyes have shown me when I've watched Hill play WR is a guy who is inconsistent, unreliable, not durable, and unproductive

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks @__fense @tsjc68 @Bent


Stephen Hill's lack of production is the only argument I need to support my opinions...


To support your opinion that he hasn't performed well thus far?  Yes.


To support your opinion that he should be cut from the team immediately (or that he should have been cut from the team last September, which you also argued?)  No, Stephen Hill's lack of production is not sufficient in and of itself to make that argument.  Other factors that you refuse to consider must be considered vis-a-vis roster spot procurement.

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68 @bradysucks @__fense @Bent


I compare Hill to other #2 WR's the Jets have had since I've been a fan.....


Guys like Chrebet, Cotchery, Edwards, Walker etc.......


I watched the WR tandems of Al Toon & Wesley Walker, Keyshawn and Chrebet, Braylon & Tone, Coles & Cotchery etc etc.........so when I look at those guys and how they played and then watch Hill I am convinced the Jets can do much better than S Hill as a starter......


Again SEEING is believing.....until I see it from Hill I am not gonna believe it.....

Pablo Bruno
Pablo Bruno

@bradysucks I think the best tandem they had besides Toon and Walker, was Santana Moss and Laverneous Coles, and I think Chrebet was still playing. That offense with our defense now would win championships..hehe

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks


We're not asking you to hand Hill the WR#2 job.  Nobody has ever done that.


We've asked you to be patient enough to allow Hill to have the WR#4 job or the WR#5 job (or, this winter, the WR#6 job or the WR#7 job) and work his way up, and you've consistently refused to even be that reasonable.


And you've gone as far as to want to kick him and his potential off the team for has beens and never weres like Jordan White and Saalim Hakim, which just illustrates how childish and petulant and spiteful you are about this whole thing.

Brendan
Brendan

@bradysucks It seems reasonable to compare entire Jet careers to a 23 year old project WR who has been hurt half of his career to date. 

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68 @bradysucks



I just think it takes pressure to make a diamond....


Hill will have EVERY opportunity to prove me wrong and I hope he does......


There are many many talented wide receivers so I don't feel like the Jets need to take on projects who take years to develop when there are many other talented players at WR who can give them production better than Hill without the wait.......


If he can't do it by year 3 (this year) then I don't think he ever will.......

bradysucks
bradysucks

@Brendan @bradysucks


He can be a project on another team......I prefer production


Produce or go somewhere else.....

Bent
Bent moderator

@bradysucks


Of the eight players you listed, let's see how many catches they had by the age of 23 years and 2 months (Hill's age now).


Chrebet - 66

Holmes - 49

Toon - 46

Hill - 45

The other four have less than 45.  In fact, Keyshawn wasn't even in the league at that age.


You want production?  For his age, he is producing right in line with the players you highlighted.

Brendan
Brendan

@bradysucks You are overstating how many good receivers there are in the NFL. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks


Stephen Hill, first two years in the league:

23 games played (out of 32), 45 catches, 594 yds, 4 TD


Jerricho Cotchery, first two years in the league:

28 games played (out of 32), 25 catches, 311 yds, 0 TD


What's the difference between the two?  Cotchery came into a loaded, veteran team and played a supportive role while acclimating to NFL life.  Hill came into a team bereft of WR talent (and decimated by injury) and was thrown into the fire when he was still a developing project.


Don't hold it against Hill that he was asked to do more than we planned for him to do so soon.

Brendan
Brendan

@bradysucks So you felt that way about Howard? Snacks? The only difference between those projects and Hill is they weren't drafted in the 2nd round. 

bradysucks
bradysucks

@Brendan @bradysucks


Don't think so.......especially with the infusion of talent that entered the league this year at WR in the draft.......and we are talking about a #2 WR.......We could have signed a guy like James Jones and I'll take that kind of player over Hill any day.....



bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68 @bradysucks


How many games and targets did each guy play in and get their 1st 2 years in the league? That would make your comparison argument more compelling.....


Hill is nothing like Cotchery.....


Should only happen that he develops into another Jericho

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks


We could have signed a guy like James Jones and I'll take that kind of player over Hill any day.....


And I also like James Jones.


Here's the thing, though, that you keep not getting:  We can sign James Jones and still be patient with Stephen Hill and keep him around another season, waiting on his lightbulb to go on.


The point of signing James Jones is to improve the team, not to get rid of Stephen Hill.  Those two things are not diametrically opposed.  You can add new WR talent like Jones (or Decker, Ford, Saunders, Enunwa, and Evans) and still hold a roster spot for still-just-23-year-old Stephen Hill.

Brendan
Brendan

@bradysucks You haven't seen a single receiver from this year's draft play an NFL game yet, you can't just go ahead and include them in the list of good receivers. 


(insert 50 post argument about how you undervalue Jeremy Kerley). 

bradysucks
bradysucks

@tsjc68


Hill can't play special teams and he isn't a productive starter....


Seems like a waste of a roster spot.....unless he shows he can stay healthy (durability matters) and be more consistent.....


Hill developing is a good thing.......but you gotta realize the possility it might not ever happen.....There are plenty of athletic guys who don't make it in the NFL  for one reason or another.....I think the Jets can do better than this guy and I think his upside is overrated.......He doesn't win the contested balls and this makes me not respect him as a WR

bradysucks
bradysucks

@Brendan @bradysucks


Kerley was hurt half of last season.....and the Jets passing offense was terrible....


so why would I over value Kerley? I have told you at least ten times that Kerley was the team's best WR last year......a year in which he barely had 500 yards of production

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks @tsjc68


Seems like a waste of a roster spot...


Because you don't understand the value of roster spots, because you act out of spite and emotion instead of out of logic.


Because you'd rather cut 22-year old, 6'4" 215 4.28 40yd-dash Stephen Hill so that you can roster 25 year old, 6'0" 205 4.69 40yd-dash Jordan White.  


An actual position you took here, as mind-melting as that is in retrospect.

Brendan
Brendan

@bradysucks The Jets were 8-4 with Kerley in the lineup, 0-4 without him. 


"Half the season." 


For the record, he's played in 42 of a possible 48 regular season games in his career. He's not made of glass. 


And no one is asking you to overvalue him, just value him. That's it.

bradysucks
bradysucks

@Brendan @bradysucks



You realize you just strengthened my argument by saying that Kerley didn't miss a lot of playing time......It is hard for me to get excited about 500 yards of production at WR when you are the best WR on the team....


I like Kerley......but I'd like him a lot more if he increases his production

Brendan
Brendan

@bradysucks No, I absolutely did not do that. I'm proving your point is poorly researched and therefore most likely wrong. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@bradysucks In 2012, with Mark Sanchez slumping, then completely losing the plot, Kerley had 827 yards despite only starting seven games.


He'd have matched that last year if not for a freak accident where his arm got Rondo'd in the wrong direction.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@bradysucks


It is hard for me to get excited about 500 yards of production at WR when you are the best WR on the team...


Which is a function of the team and not of Kerley.


Dude had 44 balls thrown his way all year long.  Do you know why we haven't had a 1,000 yard receiver in forever?  Because we never throw the ball to one guy enough for him to ever have a chance at 1,000 yards.


It's not Kerley's fault that his quarterbacks have thrown the fewest attempted passes in football during the Obama administration.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @bradysucks


Under the Rex/Sanchez/Geno regime (2009-present, i.e. The Obama Administration), the Jets have attempted 2,438 pass attempts.


That's the third fewest pass attempts in the league over that 80-game span.  Only the 49ers and Panthers have fewer.  All of them are franchises shepherding young QBs (or reclamation project QBs) in a run-centric offense.


That's almost 1,000 fewer pass attempts than the Lions during that same 80-game span.


http://pfref.com/tiny/NTOOQ