Daily Links: Checking in with some old friends




172 comments
williamg1
williamg1

Media won't have much to report on over the next month. I guess they'll have to manufacture something. 

levi
levi

@williamg1 Nah, they just need to get creative with their "sources". Perhaps a phone call to Hank and Fonzie would give them some interesting articles that would spin enough negativity to get published.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples He had never been arrested prior to that incident. I doubt financial delinquency will factor into a gun case. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples

Which is why we weren't comparing them, we were comparing and contrasting them.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @Hanknaples

I hope it DOES factor in, so that Goodson can have any potential conviction thrown out on appeal, as that's blatantly prejudicial and wouldn't meet the prior bad acts standard for admissibility. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@nesboogie @tsjc68

Heh, gotcha.  I like Hunter too.


While we're at it, we should trade for Russell Wilson.  I think he'd really bring this offense together nicely.

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Brendan @Hanknaples


It's possible Goodson had no idea the gun was there, locked away in the glove box of a vehicle being driven by a guy he'd only just met.


So the lack of a threatening charge could apply to both so maybe they are the same after all.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples They have to prove the gun was Goodson's not that he is a jerk. 

harold
harold

@tsjc68 @nesboogie

Justin Hunter is he really worth a draft pick for us? 

Is he even better than Stepehen Hill?

Don't see the trade value in him...

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @Hanknaples 

The character concerns surface in the sentencing phase of a court case so unless there is a plea agreement, his past will come into play.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

Justin Hunter is he really worth a draft pick for us?

Depends on the pick. 

Is he even better than Stephen Hill?

Yes.

Don't see the trade value in him...

I do, depending on the pick given up.

Bent
Bent moderator

@Hanknaples @Bent @tsjc68 @Brendan So?  It's still possible that's the truth, whether or not he gets convincted (which I did not comment upon).


Let's be honest here.  You assume he's guilty because he was a Jet and to wind up TJB readers.  If this was a Dolphins player you'd be defending him and saying how unfair it was.  Pointless discussing it with you if that's your attitude.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @Bent @tsjc68 @Brendan

Unless ownership is claimed....every passenger in the Vehicle gets charged !!

Yes, but that doesn't mean that every passenger in the vehicle actually has a case against him that the prosecution can win.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I won't decide the trial, and therefore is irrelevant to Hank's point. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @Brendan

Mike Goodson's prior character flaws (like not paying his rent or his jewelry bill) are prior bad acts unlikely to be deemed admissible in a court of law for this gun charge.


Garant Evans's prior character flaws (which include previous weapons charges and actual jailtime) are prior bad acts FAR MORE LIKELY to be deemed admissible.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples What is it about character that will prove a gun in a locked glove box was Goodson's, Hank? The guy who he was in the car with had prior arrests, so if we're going off your theory then he's obviously the owner of the gun since he's got worse character than Goodson, no? 

harold
harold

@tsjc68

I just posted his stats

How is he better than Hill?

No clear evidence to support your claims.

We have 6 Players 6'3" or better (including TE's), is he really worth a draft pick?

No.

Trade Value?

Limited

harold
harold

@nesboogie

In  what way?

18 Catches 354 yards 4 TD's.

He played in 14 games.

Hill played 11 his rookie season.

23 25 3 TD's

Is he really better than Hill?

a57se
a57se

@Bent 

and IF he was a Dolphins player, people would be laughing and saying how dysfunctional the Dolphins are and how dumb their GM was for signing goodson in the first place!

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @Hanknaples @tsjc68 @Brendan

Let's be honest here.  Hank assumes he's guilty because he's a Jet and to wind up TJB readers.  If this was a Dolphins player he'd be defending him and saying how unfair it was.  Pointless discussing it with him if that's his attitude.


Yup.

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

I was not trying to attempt to bolster Hanks' silly point. i was trying to shed light on the actual process.

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Hanknaples @Brendan Wouldn't the case be in danger of getting thrown out if the prosecution tried to lead the jury by making reference to these irrelevant previous incidents?

tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

Stats are irrelevant here (as they're a function of other issues like QB play and injury).  


Hunter is every bit the athletic freak that Hill is, but he's already a more fluid catcher who is less raw than Hill is at similar points in their careers.


This is not to say that Stephen Hill is worthless (he's not) or that we should move heaven and earth to acquire Justin Hunter (we shouldn't, we're perfectly fine without him), but if Justin Hunter somehow fell into our laps, spending a low-ish pick to acquire him would make sense, as Justin Hunter is a slightly better WR prospect that Stephen Hill is at this particular moment.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Hank, the jets gave you more to rave about in Rex's first two years than any Jets team had since 1998. 


Edit: tsjc, you sandbagging sonuva btch. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @Bent

Yes...lets be honest here. Ever hear about "Rant & Rave "   Well the Jets have given me very LITTLE to RAVE and TONS to Rant about since 2008 !!!


The Jets since 2008: 42-36, two playoff appearances, four road playoff victories, two AFC Championship game appearances


The Browns since 2008: 23-57, no playoff appearances


The Dolphins since 2008: 35-45, no playoff appearances


And yet here you are, on a daily basis, badmouthing everything about the Jets and telling us that this is the year that the Dolphins and/or Browns put it all together and win the division.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@a57se @Brendan

Would the state of New Jersey even allow for character witnesses at a sentencing hearing in a case like this?  A weapons violation case with mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines?


And even if they would, would the prosecution be allowed to bring negative character witnesses unrelated to the weapons charges?


I highly doubt it.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples

Hank, your ignorance of the American legal system is only matched by your ignorance of Scandinavian suicide rates and members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council.



Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples The fact that you think Evans' past criminal record has less bearing on this case than Goodson's unpaid child support is either brilliant trolling or horrible misunderstanding of the judicial process. 

harold
harold

@tsjc68

That is your opinion.  You use one fact to say he is a better propsect.

Hill is a better route runner and blocker than Hunter, imo.

So I would rate him above Hunter at this time.

Your opinion is simply that an opinion, your responses made it sound as though it is definitive, which it certainly is not.

a57se
a57se

@Hanknaples 

Hank, you take the side that non-Jets fans would take on most issues vs. backing the players on the team you supposedly root for.

I can see why people label you as a troll...

David Sadowsky
David Sadowsky

Hey, mangini had a good year too. I would rank that year very high as well.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan

You could have rolled with a different angle:


Jets last place finishes, 2009-present: zero

Bills/Browns/Dolphins last place finishes, 2009-present: NINE

a57se
a57se

@tsjc68 @a57se @Brendan 

I am not talking about character witnesses.

A pre-sentencing report is made on everyone convicted of a crime and it is used by the judge in the sentencing phase where mitigating circumstances can be taken into account as well as exascerbating circumstances. In other words, the stuff that isn't presented at trial...

tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

You asked me a subjective question, asking for an opinion.  I gave you one.

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @Hanknaples I'm going to take 57's advice and cease participating in this conversation in hope that it fizzles out like he predicted.

JCuratola3
JCuratola3

Can we please ban this guys IP I don't want to see his dolphin loving posts anymore I can't stand it.. He is just a troll.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @Hanknaples @tsjc68 @Brendan

Lionel Hutz: Don't you worry, Mr. Simpson, I saw an episode of Matlock in a bar last night.  The sound wasn't on, but I think I got the gist of it.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Repeating your incorrect statement as fact doesn't make it a fact, Hank. 

harold
harold

@tsjc68

Subjective is fine, you gave one fact which was the bigger issue, not you giving your opinion.

You also did not say, imo.  Your statement made it sound as though it was clear cut.

This is not Alshon vs Stephen

This is Justin Hunter.  I don't think anyone can say that Hunter is better based on their play on the field.  It would strictly be opinion.

I was just stating we should stay in the opinion realm, not definitive statements on these two at the moment.

a57se
a57se

@JCuratola3 

Oh, quit your ceying...I'd rather not see the stupid comments that are posted arguing with the guy. that creates the mess on a thread.

tsjc68
tsjc68

Fine.  Here's a definitive statement:


Justin Hunter has played in 87.5% of all possible games in his NFL career so far.  Stephen Hill has played in 63.8% of all possible games in his NFL career so far.


Last year, Hunter posted a 30 DYAR and a -3.6% DVOA.  Hill posted a -74 DYAR and a -28.8% DVOA.


Justin Hunter has been both healthier and (on a rate basis) more productive than Stephen Hill so far.  And the tape shows that, while both struggle with low catch rates and high drops, Hunter is more fluid and has a shorter learning curve than Hill to iron out his issues and be a true NFL contributor.


Yes, it's my opinion.  You asked "Is Hunter better?" and "How?" and my answers are "Yes" and "By being generally healthier and having better body control to shield off a defender and haul in a pass, and less frequently letting balls eat him up".

Bent
Bent moderator

@harold If we do get Justin Hunter, can we give him #78 so I can get more usage out of my old Wayne Hunter jersey?

tsjc68
tsjc68

@a57se @JCuratola3

No.


The paper towels trying to wipe up the spilled milk did not "create the mess".

harold
harold

@tsjc68

Again, you say he has shorter learning curve based on opinion.  Not any fact you a gathered.

I am fine with opinion, you think Hunter is better

I think Hunter even if better is not a player who I would trade for under any cirncumstance, why?

Because the evidence he will better than Stephen Hill in two years is not clear and limited.

harold
harold

@Bent

We would have to take that one up with the league, or he would need  to report tackle eligible every play.

a57se
a57se

@tsjc68

Yes it does 68 because you are not cleaning up anything.

Hank's initail post, if ignored would have occupied 1 small space in thie thread.

now there are 40+ comments associated with the clean-up....

Just ignore it and it doesn't become a mess.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

Their DYAR and DVOA numbers are facts that indicate that Hunter just made more plays than Hill did.


And their injury histories are facts as well.


This is still a false equivalency, though.  Nobody was saying we should trade Stephen Hill for Justin Hunter, just that we liked Justin Hunter.  We could trade for Hunter (if he was available, and again, he's not) and keep both Hunter AND Hill.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@a57se @tsjc68

No.


Stop blaming the people not creating the mess and start blaming the one person who constantly creates the mess.


Hank's initail post, if ignored would have occupied 1 small space in thie thread.


And Hank's initial post, if never made in the first place because he had been banned for trolling, never would have even occupied one small space at all and none of this could have ever happened.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Yeah, because ignoring Hank in the past has lead to him just disappearing. 

harold
harold

@tsjc68

You know as well I do I am not proposing Hill for Hunter.  That is a false equivalent.

I am talking about it would be a likely acknowledgement that the team is moving on from Hill.

I doubt we are trying to keep both Hill and Hunter long term any scenario. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

He won't disappear from the Blog and shouldn't have to but if you and 68 are so concerned about creating messes in these threads then stop arguing the same crap over and over. You two do as much to create the mess.

a57se
a57se

@harold 

I am with you Harold. 

Hunter didn't play in a Tony Sparano coached, Mark Sanchez run offense and didn't do any better than Hill his rookie year.


tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

You know as well I do I am not proposing Hill for Hunter.  That is a false equivalent.

No, that's exactly what you're doing.  nesboogie and I were talking about how much we liked Justin Hunter and you were the first (and only) one to make it a Hunter vs. Hill conversation.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se It's getting to the point where he should have to. 


And please stop blaming me for Hank's nonsense, it's insulting. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@a57se @Brendan

You two do as much to create the mess. 

This is like saying that the fire department did as much to start the fire as the match.


Only one person creates these messes on the board.  Only one.  Other people are involved in them, yes.  Only one person is responsible for their creation.

harold
harold

@tsjc68

I am asking with the depth on our roster and the most similiar player to him on our roster to Hunter is Hill the following questions:

Are we trading for Justin Hunter if we feel Hill is developing into the player we want?  I think that is unlikely.

My point was if he is not clearly better than our top 4 WR's and we have 3 draft picks and Ford still around, where is the value in trading away picks for Hunter? 

It would be Hunter vs Hill for all intents and purposes for a roster spot (not a trade).  Is he worth a pick when he may not even win the battle?

Imo, he would not be for that reason.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

Well, I agree that trading for Hunter is unlikely at the moment, primarily because Hunter isn't even available (but also because our WR corps is pretty deep, as we all know.)


All of this was conditioned initially to say that I'd trade for Hunter "depending on the pick".  If nesboogie's pipe dream comes true and the Titans put Hunter on the market, would I give up a second rounder for him?  No. 


Would I give up a 6th rounder for him?  Yeah, I probably would.  Would that give us ridiculous depth and mean that a really good player might get cut? (Possibly even Stephen Hill?) Yes, it might.  


But I'd rather take that chance and see what happens.  Maybe Hill's great OTA performances were a mirage and he's just as uncoordinated as he looked at times last year.  Maybe Jacoby Ford's feet keep acting up and he's a washout.  Maybe we have a rash of injuries and three of these guys we like and are counting on rip up their knees, Aaron-Berry-style in Week 1 at Cortland and our depth isn't as stellar.


Crazy things happen.


Regardless of how you fell about Stephen Hill (and remember that this whole conversation is happening between you, me, and now a57se, three guys who are all firmly on the record as being supportive of Stephen Hill being a member of the 2014 Jets), there's a pricepoint where acquiring talent from another org becomes a no brainer, and that pricepoint exists for Justin Hunter.


Even if your team is already stacked in that area.


That's all I was saying.  "At the right price", yes, I'd trade for Justin Hunter.



harold
harold

@tsjc68

My point is Hunter is not going anywhere for a 6th rounder.  That is my point.  He will cost you at least a 3rd or 4th rounder.  I just don't see the value there.

Hunter a 2nd year player on the trading block a team will look to get more value than that after just one season.  I saw the pick as being of a higher quality.  If you all said a 6th rounder I may have said take a flyer on him.

But I assumed we were talking legit value, not something so unrealistic, imo.

For a 6th rounder...All aboard for fantasy island.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@harold

All of this started as an offshoot of a conversation that began like this:


Dude #1: We should trade for Justin Hunter.

Dude #2: Is he available?

Dude #1: No.

Dude #2: Okay then.


... aaaaaaaaaaand, SCENE!!!


---------


Our entire tangent was based on the premise, stated by me, that IF HIS PRICEPOINT WAS CHEAP then yes, we should be interested, because he's got talent.  An entirely theoretical aside that you keep pooh-poohing by saying how unlikely it is (and I have never attempted to claim that it was not.)

a57se
a57se

@tsjc68 

Your condensation of the beginning of this thread is inaccurate and tilted to make Harold look like he butted into something he should not have.

Your second response was not an "Okay then!", it was a yeah i like that and we shopuld trade for Russell Wilson as well..

Harold legitmately questioned whether hunter would be worth trading for...

harold
harold

@tsjc68

We all give hypothetical scenarios.  We also say should we trade 1st or 2nd rounder or whatever.  If you don't do that, I assume we are at least talking about a realistic amount of value and if available would we do it.

6th rounder for high picks the year before is not even something I would have commented on, tbh.

So I guess this tangent is done.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@a57se @tsjc68

Harold legitmately questioned whether hunter would be worth trading for...


Correct, and my answer was "It all depends on what the price is".  Which seems to be a pretty reasonable response.

a57se
a57se

@tsjc68 @a57se 

and you conveniently leaving out the part where nesboogie said that hunter was better than Hill. which Harold responded to and you and Harold then went off debating that.

Don't blame Harold for what you were clearly a part of.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@a57se @tsjc68


The debate of "Is Hunter better than Hill?" was created by Harold.  nesboogie and I did not make our claims to that effect until harold phrased the convo to be an either/or vs. the two of them."


And the subsequent "If we acquire Hunter it's to cut Hill" convo was also created by Harold.