Daily Links: Hands off!




390 comments
a57se
a57se

Hey Harold, another inside LB has been cut, Da'Qwell jackson from Cleveland.......

a57se
a57se

Eagles sign Cooper and expected to re-sign Maclin...Yay! 1 less name to speculate about.

jdb4
jdb4

Thinking about this Revis trade discussion I think there is an ideal landing spot for him: Cleveland.


Pettine obviously knows him and how to utilize his strengths.  The Browns have the necessary cap space and a butt load of draft picks.  The owner is so desperate to win over his fan base and is clearly willing to spend money to win.  


I can see the Browns making this trade for maybe a 2nd round pick, possibly an extra 3rd or 4th.

J. Smooth
J. Smooth

I REALLY, REALLY hope Allen Robinson falls down to us at 49. He'd be terrific for us.

J. Smooth
J. Smooth

I know it's unpopular, but if we're strictly keeping a QB around to be a backup/spot starter for Geno, I'd rather take Sanchez. This is, of course, assuming that the Jets are unable to find any worthwhile trade for him.  Just comparing him to Vick, he's six years younger, has a better health track record, and has a very comparable rapport with Mornhinweg, since you have to figure that he spent a lot of time with Marty on the sidelines. The real bummer this year was that I thought Sanchez would actually thrive in Mornhinweg's offense, since it concealed his lack of size and pocket presence and put an emphasis on short intermediate throws. 


Another big part is this: Sanchez is still young. If, on the .001% chance that he actually puts it together, he is still young enough to be a viable medium-term option. People forget that this guy actually won several games for those teams in 2010 and 2011 (NE, HOU, etc.)

a57se
a57se

Going through some Post Combine mocks and what do I see? Beckham being mocked to the Jets now at 18........I LIKE!

SackDance99
SackDance99

@jdb4 With Joe Haden, that's a lot of $$$ tied into CB when the team has many other holes....

Brendan
Brendan

@J. Smooth  In a vacuum, sure, Mark could figure it out enough to be a backup. 


I just don't think he has that chance if he stays here. The media already has their narrative on him, as do the fans. I think it's best to let him try and figure it out elsewhere, and we as fans just wish him the best in that. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@J. Smooth Sanchez has no rapport with Marty.  In fact, fans seem to forget how much Sanchez struggled in camp (after working with Jeff Garcia, who had been MM's go to QB) and in pre-season.  Vick had 2 of his best NFL seasons under MM, knows his offense and showed last year that he was a good mentor.  Plus, to be real competition for Geno, the back up has to be able to execute MM's offense competently.  "Competence" doesn't come to mind when reviewing Sanchez's pro career.

a57se
a57se

@J. Smooth  

I think I agree......Sanchez, Hill or Cassel would be OK by me.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se  Do you project Beckham as a number one WR and any concerns about him transitioning to the pro game.

I wonder how he will do against the better CB's when they press him at the LOS.

J. Smooth
J. Smooth

@a57se  Love the idea of Beckham but if we take him I think we would have to take a bigger weapon in round 2, like a ASJ, DaVante Adams, etc.

a57se
a57se

@SackDance99 @jdb4 

I wouldn't be surprised if Denver takes a run at Revis. They don't have much of a window left with Peyton and Bailey is toast so that clears $10 million right off the top then if they don't re-sign Decker and re-work  a contract or two, they might be able to squeeze Revis in at $16 millon. They might even try and restructure his deal.......

Pat d
Pat d

I agree Sanchez will move on but it better not have anything to do with the media or the fans

J. Smooth
J. Smooth

@Brendan @J. Smooth  You're probably right. But every time I see an article about Sanchez, I just think back to three years ago, and think "How the hell did this happen?". The Jets-Sanchez thing really should have worked. Young, good-looking QB with charisma and high potential shows up on Broadway as the next Joe Namath, and plays very well for flashes. That 4th year should've been the next step, but it wasn't. It's scarred me from nearly all optimism about QBs in the future.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

Definitely no. 1 WR. "Antonio Brown +" as one evaluator likened him or another Steve Smith (Panthers).

a57se
a57se

@J. Smooth @a57se 

that is exactly what i want...beckham in round one then either Adams in 2 or Moncrief in 3......Brandon Coleman if all else fails.

levi
levi

@a57se   Whys that? Its not a random attack. Ive been saying for weeks I would like Byrd so Im not counting the tag to be fact until it happens. If you cant take a little criticism about your hypocritical behavior on a blog without resorting to threats and name calling you obviously have anger issues.

a57se
a57se

@levi @a57se 

Another random attack for no apparent reason......
I'd love to meet you face to face.

levi
levi

@a57se So its common knowledge that Byrd will be franchised but everything else you have argued about today has to be proven within the shadow of a doubt to be fact? Youre impossible to have a rational discussion with at this point.

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se  

Can't argue about the depth at WR but... it's the Browns

a57se
a57se

@jdb4  

I actually thought the Browns would be a prime candidate to trade UP to get the QB or Clowney they want.....they have two 1st rounders, 2 third rounders and 2 4th rounders...plenty of firepower.

There are plenty of WR's who would complement Cameron and Gordon later in the draft.....

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se @jdb4 

Yeah, it's something I have thought about, I imagine Pettine would like to have both Mingo and Mack.  I have to imagine though that he knows he needs to score points.  Cameron, Gordon and Watkins would be tough to stop for most teams. Hoyer could hold the fort for one more season or say Shaub gets cut, they could sign him.

a57se
a57se

@jdb4 @a57se 

Fair enough and that is a possibility for the Browns but I would be surprised if Pettine was on board with WQatkins and Carr as his two first round picks.......especially with Mack sitting on the board at 4.....

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se @jdb4 

I didn't want to reference it because it is lying season but Daniel Jeremiah had a story about the Browns wanting Carr on NFL.com.  


I also see him as a better fit for the Browns then I do Manziel.  I think he fits better in Kyle Shanahans offense.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se @BrendanAnd, I said "If, say, Byrd hits free agency...."  Your reading comprehension isn't at its peak today.

a57se
a57se

@jdb4  

Well yeah, anything is possible...I thought you might have some other reason for thinking they would wait for Carr.......

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se @jdb4@Brendan 

Who's to know?  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Just because most of use think the other 3 are better, the only thing that matters is what Farmer and Pettine think. 


Most of the people on this board love Watkins, maybe the Browns love Watkins more than those three QBs.

a57se
a57se

@jdb4 @Brendan 

If Manziel or bridgwater or Bortles is there at 4, you really see them passing on one of those guys for Derek Carr?

jdb4
jdb4

@Brendan @jdb4 

True, they need a QB. With the supposed increase in cap space though they could afford it.  

Let's say they follow my top ten mock from the other day, they draft Watkins 4 then with thier other 1st they take Derek Carr. 

Then they fill out the rest of their roster with the remaining draft picks. 

They have almost $50 million in cap space.  Ward is going to get $8 million per year.  Haden will get $10 million per Mack will get $6.5 million per year.  


So that is $24 million.  So $26 million remaining. Lets say they trade for Revis, they can convert his base salary to bonus and lower his number. 


I'm not claiming it will happen, I'm exploring the plausibility of the trade.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se It hasn't happened yet, so I wouldn't assume it is going to no matter how likely it seems. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

Yeah, i made my comment from the standpoint that Byrd was getting franchised......I thought that was common knowledge now...

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Depends who Pettine would prefer, the elite safety he just coached, or the elite safety he's (potentially) about to coach. 


They're not very similar players, so it's about preference, I would think. 



Also, Byrd is getting franchised from what I've read, so it may be a moot discussion. 

Brendan
Brendan

@jdb4 The Browns who know him very well (Pettine), and have bigger issues than CB. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@jdb4 @SackDance99True, but Pettine could use Haden in the Revis role and spend resources at other positions.  If, say, Byrd hits free agency, then I can see the Browns all over him.

Brendan
Brendan

@jaygo I think some fans do with Vick, but since most of us haven't had personal experience with rooting for him or seeing him operate as a teammate, we can be swayed. There's still wiggle room with him, in other words. 


The media is the media and they'll be scum regardless, Idzik just has to keep shutting them down like he's been doing. 

Brendan
Brendan

@J. Smooth I used to do that, but when I was getting close to driving myself insane, I just gave up. The guy had promise, but for whatever reasons he flopped. I think he has a chance to be Alex Smith 2.0, just not in NY. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se @SackDance99Well, coming from a guy who thinks an OC and QB can have "rapport" even when the OC has never coached the QB for a full game, whether in the pre- or regular season, your opinion is, no offense, meaningless.  And, you're not debating because you know I'm right and need to reduce your reply comment to a childish epithet, dude.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se @SackDance99No, I said they had "no rapport" and gave the facts for that conclusion: "In fact, fans seem to forget how much Sanchez struggled in camp (after working with Jeff Garcia, who had been MM's go to QB) and in pre-season."  Then, I further clarified that they had little time together in camp and pre-season and, thus, had "no working chemistry as OC and QB."

"Building rapport" means that there isn't real rapport, yet.  So, again, my conclusion that MM and Sanchez have no rapport as QB and OC is logical and based upon the precise definition of "rapport."

I know you have a tendency to just fight, but here you should just stand down.  By the definition of rapport, it's just logical that MM and Sanchez don't have it.

a57se
a57se

@SackDance99 @a57se  

I didn't make any of the associations you are referring to and putting on me so  reign in your horses, hombre.

I was just trying to figure out how you could say with such authority, as you tend to do, that Snachez and MM had NO rapport.......
"Sanchez has no rapport with Marty."

Your exact quote. It didn't say anything about an OC/QB relationship built on mutual trust through many games of playing together. It just says NO RAPPORT...and leaves no room for the chance that they were BUILDING rapport before Sanchez was hurt.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se To the point it will weigh into the discussion about whether Mark should remain on the team? I highly doubt it. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se @SackDance99This is why you're infuriating to so many here.  J.Smooth said "Just comparing him to Vick, he's six years younger, has a better health track record, and has a very comparable rapport with Mornhinweg, since you have to figure that he spent a lot of time with Marty on the sidelines."


Now "rapport" means:


a close and harmonious relationship in which the people or groups concerned understand each other's feelings or ideas and communicate well.

Now, how is it possible for Mark and MM to have any rapport as QB and OC when Mark has never started a regular season NFL game under MM?  Moreover, comparing Vick, who started 36 NFL games with MM as his OC, to Mark in terms of "rapport" was simply incorrect.

You say that you're an engineer and precise language is important.  If that is indeed the case, then equating Vick's "rapport" with MM to Mark's was an incorrect use of the word.  In fact, my conclusion, given MM and Sanchez have never participated in a regular season NFL game together, that they have no "rapport" would be the logical one.  We are talking football, right?

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

So they couldn't have built some rapport over the 4 months that preceded Sanchez' injury?

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I think it's fair to say that a QB who had a season ending injury during preseason didn't build a rapport with his coordinator. He didn't practice and I can't imagine Marty being a big "hey, let's just chat because I want to be palsies!" type of guy. 

a57se
a57se

@SackDance99 @a57se

You keep saying they DON'T have any rapport and I am trying to understand why you keep saying that without providing any proof.

I am not sure if they do or don't........so there is nothing for me to answer, only you.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se @SackDance99@J. SmoothHe only worked, meaning running the offense in drills, practice and in pre-season games for, total, maybe a month.  He and MM have no working chemistry as OC and QB.  Are you saying that they do?  You are assuming a "rift" and all I'm saying is that they don't have a working rapport.

a57se
a57se

@SackDance99 @a57se@J. Smooth 

Sanchez spent more than a month working with MM and I don't recall any type of rift between them....Sanchez did attend all the OTA's and veterans' mini-camp as well as the countless hours he spent with him at the facility and in the classrooms. Before his shoulder surgery, Sanchez was a staple on the sideline encouraging Geno, talking with MM etc.........if he had NO rapport would he have been so visible?


a57se
a57se

@Bent @a57se@Brendan 

Sure but when you have a WR whose measurables are very uncommon like Beckham, you don't get very good matches either......

An example:

Eric Ebron is a 99% match with Kellen Winslow

Blake Bortles is an 86% match with Chad Pennington

Beckhams' best match is AJ Jenkins at 76.8%


Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @Brendan  Wouldn't you agree that QB is one of the positions where combine numbers are less relevant because intangibles are so much more important?

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

Well if you go by Marcus' tables then you probably don't want Teddy Bridgewater either...his comparables pretty much all sucked with Andy Dalton the best of the bunch listed.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Yeah, and he's good enough to post those numbers so you know how close of a correlation it is. 


I honestly wouldn't be shocked if he falls in somewhere between the elite talent you mentioned earlier and the sub-elite talent listed on Marcus' site. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se+

If you look at the correlations column for Beckham's matches, they are not very good (76.2%). In other words, Beckham is pretty unique. He ranks in the high percentile in 7 categories which is pretty remarkable.....

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se http://mockdraftable.com/players/2014/


He's been updating it, it's not easy to update an entire combine's worth of guys right away, but he's getting there. I'm very thankful for the work Marcus puts into logging this information, if there's another site that does it like he does, I haven't found it. 



a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

Yeah, I know what his database is but is it useful in its' current format?

I never can find the darn thing either.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se This is the first I'm hearing that. 


Marcus' database is a tool, not a deciding factor. I just think it's a bit more scientific than looking at combine numbers and agreeing they're "kind of similar" or whatever. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

I doubt the efficacy of Marcus' comparables........i think he has a lot to work out before it is really useful.



Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Yeah, he's a smallish guy with speed & agility. But those three guys have three levels of success (Holmes was lightning in a bottle, but has flamed out due to injury; Brown is one of the best receivers in football, and Smith used to be). 


Marcus has his database updated for Beckham and his comparables aren't nearly as good as the WR's we're discussing. 


I've softened my stance on Beckham, but I would still prefer other guys at 18. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @a57se 

Bonus coverage:

Antonio Brown is 5'10" and 186 lbs. ran a 4.56 40 with a 4.40 20 yard shuttle and a 6.98 3-cone

Steve Smith is 5'9" and 184 lbs. ran a 4.39 40 with a 4.09 20 yard shuttle and a 7.44 3-cone...I think he fell down on the 3-cone or something!

Beckham compares favorably to all 3 of these guys......

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se  I think we've proven that Holmes' diva-ness (?) doesn't preclude him from working with other receivers or working hard. He's just kind of a d*ck. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan @bklyndude 

there are definitely similarities between Holmes and Beckham Jr. so let's look at them:

Holmes 5'11" 188 lbs. 4.38 40, 4,26 20 yard shuttle and 6.82 3-cone.

Beckham jr. 5'11" 198 lbs 4.42 40, 3.94 20 yard shuttle and a 6.69 3-cone.

I don;t have the numbers for Holmes but I don't think he has beckhams' arm length or hand size either.

The big thing to me is the difference in agility......beckham has the advantage there....


True about the diva part......i just associate divaness with not working as hard.....maybe that is wrong.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I don't see why that matters, there have been many diva WR's that were really good. 

a57se
a57se

@NJ libertarian @a57se 

Another thing about Beckham, they asked Lucheiz Purifoy, the CB from Florida, who the toughest WR he faced all year was and Purifoy, without hesitation said Beckham.

Purifoy played against Allen Robinson, Kelvin Benjamin, Green-Beckham from Mizzou, Ellington from South Carolina to name a few.

a57se
a57se

@NJ libertarian @a57se 

That is the kind of play you expect from your no. 1 WR.

Beckham makes his QB look good.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude

There's a reason why guys like this wind up in the slot. They have trouble with stronger CB's on the outside.  It's my only concern with him.  Just haven't seen him enough against top backs to be completely sold yet.

NJJDB
NJJDB

@a57se That catch at 1:50 is obscene. I HOPE we get him.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

That's why I am so high on Beckham, he has that slot receiver quickness yet he can high point the ball with the best of them. The first three catches in that video show Beckhams' shoulders OVER the head of the CB when he catches the ball.......the third one is a back shoulder throw for a TD.

The second TD pass shows his COD and speed as he catches a comeback route then loses the guy covering him on an inside spin and accelerates past the other three defenders in pursuit.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude  change of direction skills are usually what slot receivers use to get open like Welker and Cruz.  They can go left or right on a dime.

On the outside, back shoulder and high pointing as well as speed are important.  As a no. one WR on a team facing the best CB's requires beating press coverage frequently.

Can't watch video at work, I will watch later.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

and few have the change of direction skills that Beckham has. That is what smaller receivers need to get open plus long arms.....I read somewhere that Beckham has a catch radius equivalent to a 6'5" WR because of his long arms.and leaping ability.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude

I like Beckham and think he would be a nice addition to any team.  I don't think his upside is as high as you though. You are comparing him to some really good WR's. 

I guess my real concern is his strength and when he gets pressed at the LOS.  To me that is one of the most undervalued aspects of being a WR.  Getting separation is a real skill.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

He is bigger (height and weight) than Smith and has very strong hands......if you watch his film, he seems fearless on the field.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude

Wow, high praise.  I don't think he is as strong as Steve Smith.  If he turns out to be Antonio Brown,  that's pretty good.

NJJDB
NJJDB

@a57se @J. Smooth OBJr is an awesome pick-up for us, particularly given that he has a rapport with our special teams coach!