Daily Links: Likewise

  • Joe Namath empathizes with hatred for Patriots QB Tom Brady [Metro]
  • Antonio Cromartie on his contract situation: ‘I don’t know’ [NJ]
  • Titans hire Whisenhunt as head coach [Tennessean]
  • Final four teams benefiting from adaptability [CBS]
  • Analyzing key (read: large) cap numbers [ESPN NY]



142 comments
UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

Jet fans on twitter are concerned that if the Pats win this week, they will be practicing at Met Life stadium in prep for the SB. I don't think they have to worry.

UncleJoesJetFarm
UncleJoesJetFarm

I have a friend who is a fanatic pats fan and he is says the Pats will beat the Broncos, based on just pounding the ball and keeping the forehead off the field. I reminded him that the Broncos run defense is not the Colts and that the Pats don't have the firepower on offense if their run game is taken away. He called me some very vicious names, lol

Bent
Bent moderator

Surely Namath empathizes with Brady not with the hatred of Brady?

a57se
a57se

@Bent 

Namath caught loads of crap during his time with the Jets.

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @Bent That's not what I mean.  I mean that the way the headline is written suggests to me that he goes along with the hatred and agrees with it, not understands what Brady is going through and feels sorry for him (as the story says).

__fense
__fense

@Bent @a57se I was pretty disappointed that it turned out that he didn't empathize with the hatred of Brady.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se@BrendanReally?  In 2009, the Eagles' best season with MM as the OC, Celek had 72 receptions. the last time a Jet TE had more than 70 receptions was Mickey Shuler in 1985...nearly 30 years ago.  Yet, now is the Golden Age for pass-catching TEs, with Gronk and Graham yearly challenging the TD record and Tony Gonzalez finishing up a HOF career in which he averaged 78 receptions per season over 17 years.


Maybe not critical, but how about necessary?

SackDance99
SackDance99

@BrendanYou know that I've been pounding the table since last year on the fact that MM's offense needs a Westbrook-type of RB to be properly built out.  It's just that I think if MM had a better TE (and 50+ catches for the primary TE is a lot, Celek had 72 one year), plus the RB, it would lessen the need for a top-notch WR.  

IMO, it's easier to get the RB and TE for the offense than it is the WR.  Yet, the Colts in 2012 were able to get 2 good TEs, a WR (Hilton) and a RB (Vick Ballard) to help Luck through the draft.  So, however they do it, the Jets need to upgrade RB, TE and WR in whatever order is best.

a57se
a57se

@Brendan 

I agree brendan, in MM's system, TE isn't that critical.

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

I am liking him more and more as I see what he can do. He is ready to step right in and contribute at WR. 

I would take Lee first because he is a little more dynamic but matthews is no slouch.

Brendan
Brendan

I just don't think Marty would have called plays for Celek if he had other options besides Curtis, Brown, Hank Baskett and Jason Avant. Then he reached a point where he didn't have to and Celek's impact lessened. 


It was just something I was contemplating while looking through Marty's offenses. His teams did best with an elite RB talent playing at an elite level. He never had an elite TE, so I guess we can't really say, but I think the RB output is a bigger issue than TE. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@SackDance99Funny thing is that teams draft college OTs in the first round with an eye to converting them to OG (Bears drafted Kyle Long, OT at Oregon with the 20th pick in 2013), so why not a WR with an eye to converting the TE to WR?  We both played football, so the reason teams think a college OT can convert to OG is because OG is a simpler position...and, IMO, TE is a simpler position than WR.  Maybe you're right and at 18 such a conversion project is too big a risk, but I can almost guarantee that some team in the next couple of years will do what I'm suggesting with Evans because it's a way of getting a return on a raw college WR, who can block (and I thought Evans was an able blocker), from day 1.

a57se
a57se

@SackDance99@Brendan 

Let's see:

Ebron 6'4" 245 LBs. Projected 4.67 40

Amaro 6'5" 260 LBs. Projected 4.67 40

Ser-Jenkins 6'6" 276 LBs. Projected 4.75 40

Troy Niklas  6'6" 270 LBs Projected 4.74 - 4.9 40

CJ Fiedorowicz 6'6" 265 LBs. Projected 4.79 40


These are the top 5 from what I can find and they seem to be ranked by speed........the closest to SD's desired Gronk spec is Amaro.......

 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@SackDance99Brent Celek, who I think we agree is merely an average TE, got about 50+ receptions a year as the primary TE in MM's system in Philly.  So, I dispute your thesis a bit and openly wonder what MM would've done with a Vernon Davis-type?  70-80 receptions?  At that point, we're talking WR reception numbers.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se You would take that guy at the 18th pick? 

juunit
juunit

@SackDance99@juunit@Brendan 

Seferian-Jenkins would be the one who does. Although he supposedly weighs as much as 270 and might have an extra inch of height on Gronk. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

I don't think Matthews the Offensive Tackle will still be on the board at 18 but, NO, Matthews the WR from Vanderbilt.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@juunit@SackDance99@BrendanOkay, let's see what they do at the Combine.  For context, Gronk ran a 4.68 at his Pro Day and measured out to over 6-6 and 258 lbs.  That's an excellent size, speed, bulk profile.  So. let's see if your guys can match that.

Brendan
Brendan

@SackDance99 I get what you're trying to do, I just don't think you convert a 1st round WR prospect. If a guy with Evans skillset and size was a mid-to-late rounder? I'd take a shot on converting him, but a 1st round pick spending 2 years minimum changing positions is kind of dicey for me. 


Also something to consider: Marty doesn't really feature his TE. He did for a year or two in Philly, but that was because his WR's were Kevin Curtis and Reggie Brown, or someone equally awful. 


Going back to some of our past discussions this offseason, I think that Brian Westbrook-type WR is way more of an important piece to Marty's O. 

juunit
juunit

@Brendan@juunit 

I'd give him a real look at 18. With the newfound obsession around the league with TEs, I just don't see him falling anywhere near our pick in the 2nd. The common consensus around the internet seems to be Ebron and Amaro are 1 and 2, but I think they're dead wrong. Seferian-Jenkins is undoubtedly #1 and could even be gone by 18. Eifert went 21st last year. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@juunitI like him, too, along with Ebron and Amaro.  Jets will have the luxury of going BPA at 18 and if the top-rated TE is available then, I'd rather take a TE than a second-tier WR candidate.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@SackDance99Like I said, I'm thinking outside the box.  The TE position is every bit as important offensively today as WR.  The things that make Evans a good WR prospect would also make him a great TE conversion target.  No LB or S could cover him one on one and the coverage skills of even the best LB or S are inferior to a CB.  TEs often times get free releases from the LOS and the route running tree for a TE is just simpler.

Brendan
Brendan

@juunit I'd sign up for Seferian-Jenkins if he slipped to the Jets in the 2nd. 

juunit
juunit

@a57se@juunit@SackDance99@Brendan 

No, Grimble is the third and smaller guy. He'd be the same size as Evans if Evans got up to 250. I also haven't seen anyone underrate his athleticism.

The two big guys are Seferian-Jenkins and Fiedorowicz. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se@juunit@SackDance99@BrendanThe WCO seems to work better with Vernon Davis (6-3, 250 lbs), Brent Jones (6-4, 230 lbs), Mark Chmura (6-5, 248 lbs), etc.  Heck, even Russ Francis, despite being 6-6, weighed less than 250 lbs.  The Jets back in the day converted Jerome Barkum and Rich Caster to TE, who knew that they were ahead of the times.

juunit
juunit

@SackDance99@juunit@Brendan 

I don't agree that the guys I'm talking about can't get downfield. There are 3 TEs in this draft that I really like, two of them are that size and they're both criminally underrated in terms of their athletic abilities by way too many people. But I digress, because as usual it's dumb groupthink and they'll be proved wrong.

And, yeah, I'd take Graham obviously. But I do think we're gonna see more of what the Seahawks did to him in the future. 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Common sense? He's bulked up by putting on muscle. Bigger and stronger usually means you're faster. Was Warren Sapp lighter as a freshman or senior at Miami? And do you think he was faster as an 18 year old freshie or a 21 year old man? 

Brendan
Brendan

@SackDance99 I agree his route running needs work, but because he can use his body, has extremely strong hands and knows how to high-point a ball, you can throw him jump balls and flat routes to keep him involved. 


V-Jax does most of his damage on seams/flies/deeper routes, which is how I envision Evans. A deep possession receiver, if that makes sense. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@SackDance99 

Evans ran a 4.54 in HS and has bulked up since then, what makes you think he is running sub 4.5???

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@SackDance99I've found that college stats usually make players seem more attractive.  I'd be surprised if Evans is, indeed, 225 lbs.  If he's 235 lbs, he'd need to gain a measly 15 lbs to be Vernon Davis size, except Vernon is only 6-3.  My issue is Evans is a raw route runner and will need time to develop, but at TE he could play from day 1 and be a force on day 1.  I just don't think you can realistically say that Evans at WR will be a dynamic playmaker from day 1.

Brendan
Brendan

@SackDance99 For the record, I want an upgrade at the TE position, I'm just against transitioning Evans into a TE. If the Jets get Amaro at 18 I'd be fine with that, I just wouldn't want to move Evans' position. 

a57se
a57se

@SackDance99@a57se

Haha...yeah, not the greatest Bio!

Optimum scouting has a little more gravitas and they have Evans as the 6th WR and a 2nd round grade.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@juunit@SackDance99@BrendanI'll take Graham's "softness" any day of the week.  Graham has played injured all season and comes from a background that would break most ordinary human beings.


The TE position is an offensive position now and the guys you describe can't get downfield. Gronk is an exception.  The guys that flashed this year are more in the Vernon Davis/Jimmy Graham mold.  Vernon is 6-3, 250.  I'd love a true 3 down TE, but I'd like a dynamic seam buster even more.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se No, I don't. Please don't put words in my mouth just because you decided weeks ago you weren't going to like Evans. It's pathetic that you do this, grow up. 

Brendan
Brendan

@SackDance99 @Brendan I dunno man. VJax was like 250 at the combine, now he plays at 230, which is pretty much what Evans is right now. V-Jax ran a 4.46, so if Evans runs, say a 4.49...it looks like a pretty fair comparison. V-Jax only has 32" arms, I think he's more similar to Evans than Plax in body type. 


I just think taking a receiver who will need a little work at WR and hoping him to put on 30 pounds and make noise at TE is a tough proposition. I would much rather, if the team drafted Evans, keep him at WR and just have him use his massive size advantage to bully CB's on the outside. 

juunit
juunit

@SackDance99@Brendan 

Graham is soft though, it's not just his lack of blocking. Whichever Seahawk it was that called him soft was right. They were knocking him around at the LOS like a rag doll and he failed to make any plays against them. It's actually kinda sad. Dude weighs 265 and still gets bullied worse than Steve Smith.

I'd rather just get a real TE if that's the way we go at 18. Even if Evans gets up to 250 that's still on the small side for a TE. The guys I'm liking at TE in this draft are 6'6-6'7 and 265-270. Plus, they actually use that size both to block and to make catches. 

SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se@SackDance99I don't want to weigh in on the value of the scouting report.  All I'll say is that I respect Brendan's opinion more than the author, who describes himself as follows:


I'm a college student near Seattle with a strong taste for Metal music. Analyzing every part of the draft, as well as trades, is some serious fun, in my opinion. Follow me on Twitter: @RiderIngalls. Or email me at swburnordie@hotmail.com.

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@SackDance99It's body type.  He looks to me like he could bulk up and carry 20-30 more lbs on his frame with no problem.  IMO, Plax and VJax don't have similar body types.  As for blocking, doesn't Jimmy Graham's blocking make you giggle?  I'd rather have a guy like Evans be a game changer as a TE, rather than struggle as a WR and, IMO, he will struggle, maybe for 2 years.

Brendan
Brendan

@SackDance99 Really? I'm surprised you think that. He's a meager 225 pounds and is only an average blocking WR. I wouldn't entertain the idea of moving him to TE, he's a big WR in the Plax/V-Jax mold (I know these WR's aren't the same mold, Evans is a combination of the two in my mind). 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Reading isn't my strong suit? Okay, 57. Whatever you need to tell yourself. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

I think that is not your strong suit.......not trying to be mean or anything but .......

SackDance99
SackDance99

@Brendan@SackDance99Okay.  IMO, the learning curve for TE is far lower than WR and the TE position is becoming a primary offensive passing weapon.  I'd be out of the box and think about converting him because he's bulkier than Plax.  Plax was all arms and legs with a huge catch radius.  Evans doesn't look like that...IMO, he looks like a TE.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I am reading it literally, how else should I read a scouting report? 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I will bet you anything right now that Evans runs faster times than Plax at the combine. It's not even a question. 


Evans will be hovering around 4.5, possibly getting just under that mark. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@SackDance99 

Plaxico is a good comparison for Evans, much better than VJax. 

By all accounts, Evans is expected to run around the same time as Plax...he ran a 4.54 in HS but has added some bulk since then.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se No, he's saying he plays small, which is a separate criticism than not using his body consistently. 


I've watched every game of Evans, the game tape does not agree that he plays small. "Playing small" implies a guy shies away from something (contact, double teams, whatever). Evans doesn't do that. He just sometimes misreads balls and loses body leverage, that's a different criticism. The author is lazy, essentially. 

Brendan
Brendan

@SackDance99 I'm against converting him. Plaxico ran a 4.59. If a guy learns to truly use his size he can be lethal even if he's not exceptionally fast. 


If Evans is a true 6'5" and runs in the 4.5's, I have no problem drafting him at 18 and keeping him at WR. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

Brendan, the guy is simply stating that Evans is inconsistent in using his size to full advantage.

The game tape clearly agrees with that. highlight reels don't because they don't show misses.....


SackDance99
SackDance99

@a57se@bklyndude@Brendan@Marcus ArmstrongIsn't all of this premature until we get to the Combine?  Evans has unique size and bulk as a WR.  Back in the day, the Jets would've converted him to TE.  If he's a true 6-5 and his 40 time isn't WR elite, what about converting him?  Then, his raw route running wouldn't be a concern because he'd be a top route running TE.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I disagree with the idea that he plays significantly smaller. There's a difference between "not using size" and "playing small." Evans does not play small. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan

I think the guy basically did say that Evans doesn't always use his size........not sure what your complaint is there.


Here is a direct Quote:

"The issue is that he is still learning how to use this size. At times he shows dominance with it, at other times, he plays like he’s significantly smaller."

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude@Brendan@Marcus Armstrong 

There will always be debate about Draft prospects and disagreements. Very few guys are so good that everyone agree completely on them. 

I would think we would want to hear all sides in discussing different guys on this Blog as well though I know some folks can handle that very well.

Interesting that Optimum Scouting has Evans as the no. 6 WR in the Draft.......

Brendan
Brendan

@bklyndude I just don't get how you make the "use his size" criticism. Evans regularly boxes defenders out, jumps over them, out-muscles them, etc. 


Now, if you wanted to say he needs to be more consistent at that, fine, but he knows how to do it and when he does it properly he's almost unstoppable. 

a57se
a57se

@Marcus Armstrong 

In a WCO, route running IS critical. With a young QB, route running IS critical. Getting separation early is just as critical for a young QB and is another area Evans lacks.


Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

That's not really true. His route running is raw, but it's never going to be a critical aspect of his game, so whatever. And he definitely ran more than three routes. As soon as I finish up my new site, I'll show you.

a57se
a57se

@Marcus Armstrong 

The second comment was odd and I am not sure where that was coming from but there was a lot more to that scouting report than a couple lines.

The main point is that Evans is EXTREMELY RAW despite his production. he ran three basic routes at A & M. Hill ran more routes at Georgia Tech!

Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

@a57se @Marcus Armstrong  Having watched actual game tape, I don't see how you come away with the following comments:


"The issue is that he is still learning how to use this size."

"He’s a guy that’s more focused on the team outcome and seems soft-spoken."

"but can’t seem to bring them down. Contested catches are something he will struggle to come down with much of the time."