Daily Links: Moving inside

  • Dakota Dozier Discusses His Move to Guard [Gang Green Nation]
  • New York Jets OT D’Brickashaw Ferguson not named top-10 in the NFL [Cover32]
  • Positional Battles to Watch During New York Jets’ OTAs [Rant Sports]
  • Geno was much better on third downs last year [PFF]
  • Mornhinweg aims to slash mistakes in half [ESPN NY]
  • Dan Marino files concussion suit against NFL [PFT]
  • Tim Tebow training every day, still hopes for an NFL return [PFT]



167 comments
Bent
Bent moderator

Wow...I step out for five minutes (ok a couple of hours) and all heck breaks loose.


Have no interest in getting involved in petty namecalling, so I'll give my final response to Fonzie here.


You are CORRECT that there are many ways to judge a nose tackle.  However, whether you use (a) your eyes (b) tackle numbers (c) STOP numbers - thereby removing credit for any tackles that didn't constitute a stop, which you suggest was the case with Po'uha (d) PFF grades where the player gets an up or down grade on every play (e) what their coaches have said about them or (f) what their teammates have said about them...they both come out with the same result for Harrison and Po'uha (and even Ellis).  They're both good.  There's no way around that, because it's the same no matter which criteria you use.


I'm happy to let you go on thinking you're right about this and agree to disagree, but you're not going to change anyone's mind based on any of these criteria.


Hopefully that puts the argument to rest like you wanted.

SackDance99
SackDance99

The PFF stats were interesting, particularly in showing that Geno had more time to throw than the majority of other QBs.  So, the Jets' pass blocking was good, but the combo of inexperience and the receivers' inability to get separation set the passing game back.  With the same amount of time to throw this season, with the new additions, especially the twin safety valves of CJ2K and Amaro, the Jets offense should be more productive.

With a barely competent offense in 2010, the Jets won 11 games.  In 2010, the average yards per play for the offense was 5.2; in 2009 (Sanchez's rookie year), it was 5.0...exactly what it was with Geno last year (and Geno didn't have the NFL's best rushing offense behind him).  In 2010, however, the defense regressed quite a bit, from allowing 4.2 yards per play in '09 to 4.8 in '10.  Last year, the defense let up 5.1 yards per play.  So, if the offense can move up and the defense move down, the impact on the Jets' record could be dramatic.  Some optimism for Jets fans.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Since you refuse to let this go, here it is. 


THE DEFINITIVE LIST OF THINGS FONZIE IS PRESENTLY WRONG ABOUT (in the above post):


1.) For starters, you cut Bent's argument, leaving out context that makes it abundantly clear that he is not simply throwing away tackles as a measure of ability for NT's (which an intelligent humanoid could deduce from the excerpt you actually did quote, but since you're an immoral wanker, I'm calling you on this). Here is Bent's post:: 


First off, I've told you before that using tackle numbers to evaluate NT play is not the best way to evaluate such players, because the best nose tackles draw double teams to enable someone else to make a tackle a lot of the time.


However, if you want to use that stat then it breaks my heart to tell you that Po'uha and Robertson were both among the league leaders at their position a couple of times.


Also, I agree you can't compare Rubin to Po'uha for two reasons.  First off, Po'uha was a nose tackle the whole time.  Rubin was a nose tackle in 2009, but only a backup.  In 2010 he started at nose and had his worst ever season.  In 2011 and 2012, the Browns shifted to a 4-3 and Rubin played as a DT, but not normally over the A-Gap as that was Phil Taylor and Ismailly Kitchen's role.  Finally, last year, he actually played defensive end in the 3-4 system.  The other reason is that Rubin stayed in the game on passing downs more often, so his level of production as a pass rusher was always going to be higher.


Rubin is another good defensive tackle and made more of a contribution as a pass rusher, although Sione got better in that area over time.  However, he's never been as consistently good against run as Sione was.


This was in response to, among other things, your IN-FCKING-SANE premise that all good CB's are good because of an interior lineman. Which is God-level stupidity. Just magnificent. 


2.) You stated: "You are partially right...It's not THE best way, however you seem to dismiss it is ONE of best ways to evaluate a NT because the true measure is a combination of plays with tackles being ONE of the best."


This is false. As already explained, Bent is not doing that. 


3.) "The fact is that in the trenches the nose has a responsibility of a specific area to prevent the offensive play from happening or to limit to its minimum the impact of the play. The larger the area of responsibility the nose tackle dominates the greater the nose tackle. Period! End of sentence!"


For once we agree. But I have no idea who is arguing against that and nothing Bent has said in any of these loony discussions has, either.


4.) "It is absolutely ridiculous and insane to evaluate a nose tackle strictly by his lateral or forward domination at the line when in fact the greater the nose tackle the more double and triple teams he will encounter in his line play. "


This is wrong. You absolutely measure a NT by how disruptive he is at the point of attack in spite of double teams. Does he lose leverage early? How does he re-anchor and stop from being driven backwards 10 yards? Things like this matter, and go against how a NT is viewed by people who know what they're talking about. 


5.) "Under your premise that a nose tackle's true value is having the ability to penetrate while engaged in double or triple teams consistently can only be compared to someone like King Kong or Superman with pads on."


I already went into how this is wrong down below this post a bit. It's still wrong. 


6.) This is a two-parter! "It is ludicrous to think that the ability of disengaging from double and triple teams and continue to make plays within his specific area of responsibility EVEN IF THE PLAY is behind him  by your standards is considered a fault by the NT and not one of the best ways to judge the player." 


What in the seven hells are you talking about? No one said anything like this. That is literally what people have been arguing against you with. It's NOT just tackles. It's tackles, eating blocks, disengaging, penetrating, awareness, motor. There are many factors, which is why when you boil it down to just tackles, it's maddening and gets called out. You are now disagreeing with yourself without realizing it and I can't wait for you to tell me I'm wrong. The logic there should be sufficient to choke even the most brilliant minds. 


"Using your argument Pouha was great at making the plays behind him but he is half the player as Harrison making the plays in front of him."


No. That is not using a single piece of the argument Bent made against you that day. Now go run into the walls of your padded room a couple more times and see if the stars you're seeing go away. 

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples The fact that you think it impossible for an interior DL to be disruptive while also consuming double-triple teams is probably my favorite nonsensical comment in this entire thing. 


Muhammad Wilkerson does this every play. Every play two (sometimes three) player try to block Mo, and every play two (sometimes three) guys fail at it. He racks up sacks, he destroys running plays yards before the LOS and he does it all while multiple guys try to prevent him from doing so. Or maybe he's actually Bizarro Superman. 

williamg1
williamg1

@jake100  I'm with you about concerns for the offensive line. But, seriously, what you wrote is just a shorter version of Cimini's stuff. You lifted this from him. 

Brendan
Brendan

@jake100


Howard was not the most consistent lineman on the team, unless you mean he went from "consistently solid" in the first half of the year to "consistently bad" in the 2nd half. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples


Wait! WHAT?  Now you are  equating Ellis to Harrison. You're taking this idiotic position to the limit.   Are you now selectively forgetting who beat out who for the starting job?


Joe Montana beat out Steve Young for the starting job in San Francisco for like a decade.


They were both pretty damn good quarterbacks, Hankzie.  


"Better than" ≠ "completely dissimilar"

Bent
Bent moderator

@Hanknaples I'm not equating them.  Harrison was better and deserved to start.  I'm just saying that under the same criteria Ellis is good too.  You know he had the best run-stop percentage in the NFL (with Harrison in second place) right.  That's a sign of how good they BOTH are.  In fact, the run defense actually got better when he entered the game "With the 6-foot-4, 340-pound Ellis in the game, the Jets allowed only 2.59 yards per rush, according to NFL stats. Without him, they yielded 3.40 -- a team-high 0.81 differential. " - per Rich Cimini.  Of course, that's partly because Ellis was fresher having not played as much, but it's still "something, anything" he has achieved.


This is my point - You seem to have taken the position that Harrison is great and Po'uha and Ellis are bad.  However, every criteria which tells us - justifiably - that Harrison was great last year, also tells us how good they are.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @Hanknaples


This was in response to, among other things, your IN-FCKING-SANE premise that all good CB's are good because of an interior lineman. Which is God-level stupidity. Just magnificent. 


That needs to be restated again.  This entire faux-debate about what and how good NT play is evaluated and how/when/why defensive linemen take on and beat double-teams is just an offshoot of the LEGITIMATELY CRAZY CLAIM OF FONZIE THAT REVIS/HADEN/MILLINER ETC. OWE THE QUALITY OF THEIR PLAY PRIMARILY TO THE GUY LINED UP OVER CENTER IN A PHONEBOOTH AS FAR AWAY FROM THE BOUNDARY AS YOU CAN BE.
Nobody who knows anything about football would ever make a claim that the play of Harrison/Robertson/Pouha/Rubin/Poe/etc. taking on centers and guards in the middle of the field determines whether or not Darrelle Revis or Dee Milliner or Joe Haden will be elite cornerbacks or not covering wideouts on an island on the hashes (even though that's what Fonzie was actually saying.)

Brendan
Brendan

@williamg1 You're beginning to see the pattern, I'm guessing? Joey's panic will be somewhere else tomorrow, and unsurprisingly it will be wherever Cimini tells him it should be. 

Kirk Michael
Kirk Michael

@Brendan @jake100 These rankings are never fair to the Jets, Brick has done his job for years and has done it well. He and Mangold have good yrs left at a high level and there the least of my worries. Just like Mo they dont get there due. Rich is the only JET that has been a golden boy to these writers. Our running game is going to be very good and allow Genos life to be much easier in the passing game with Marty helping guys like Amaro have huge impacts and getting Kerley great match ups and continuing to develop Hill and help Decker in coverage,but with all these things im finally seeing pieces to an offense to be good enough in the begginning of the season to put up enough pts for our wats going to be a great defense to win games. Then eventually the offense will run much smoother as the season goes on and i believe we have the perfect team for the post season, can we get there ? I did predict btwn 7-9 n 9-7 last season. This yr its 9 0r 10 wins, we get in our o line and backs r good enough to help an already great defense n to help a young qb with a couple new toys n Amaro who I believe is going to be huge in Martys offense will make a huge difference and make defenses focus on his size and catching ability.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @Hanknaples


It's called an "playing on an island" for a reason:  Because that CB is tasked with covering that WR, ALONE, WITHOUT HELP, INCLUDING WITHOUT HELP FROM A PASS RUSH ENABLED OR NOT ENABLED BY GOOD/BAD NOSE TACKLE PLAY.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples You're an embarrassment to this blog. 


What part of Bent's quote did YOU miss? Oh, that's right, about 90% of it because I quoted the entire thing, not just your out-of-context excerpt. 

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples


"Under your premise that a nose tackle's true value is having the ability to penetrate while engaged in double or triple teams consistently can only be compared to someone like King Kong or Superman with pads on. "


How about the one above, where you appear to be saying that only King Kong or Superman would have the ability to penetrate while engaged in double/triple teams consistently? Because Wilkerson does that literally dozens of times every game. 

Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

@Hanknaples I suppose, in fairness, none of the sentences that indicated that sentiment were grammatical, so we can't exactly provide a clear "here's where you said that", but that's only because you really failed to say anything at all... As best I can tell, you're missing verbs in all the clauses where you talk about that.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @tsjc68


In the span of like three days, you've said the following:


-Someone other than you lacks credbility

-Someone other than you keeps using the same stale cut-and-paste arguments.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Spoken by the guy who, quite literally, just cut and pasted his first post on this page. 

williamg1
williamg1

@Brendan @williamg1 I still read Cimini's stuff. But I'm able to filter out the useful nuggets from his biased negativity. When I do read the negative stuff, I just assume Joey's going to repeat it. 

Joey never fails to deliver. 

Brendan
Brendan

@Kirk Michael Dude, paragraph breaks. They are your friend. I feel like I just got slapped by Rick James with a wall of text. 

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 I thought it was called "playing on an island" because the CB's are so little and the NT's are so big it's like they're dancing on an island!!!!!!!!!!!

Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

@Brendan @Hanknaples And, as I mentioned, that sentence quite literally means nothing, as it starts with a prepositional clause which never ends. "Under your premise"... nothing. A premise is established, and then absolutely no theories under that premise are discussed.


*That's* why your sentences aren't grammatical, bro.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @Hanknaples Wilkerson, Watt, Geno Atkins, Gerald McCoy, Jurrell Casey, etc.


All of them are doubled/tripled routinely (and more frequently than Damon Harrison) and all of them still beat that double/triple and penetrate into the backfield routinely (and do so more than Damon Harrison.)


Facts are facts.  Is Damon Harrison one of the better young defensive linemen in the game?  Yes.  Is he the best?  No, he's not.


Does it suck to have to point that out?  A little.  Is it a waste of all of our time to constantly have to explain sane things to a crazy person?  Yes.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@williamg1 @Brendan


Hey Homer, I'm worried about the beer supply. After this case, and the other case, there's only one case left! Yeah yeah, Oh Barney's right. Yeah, lets get some more beer.. yeah.. hey, what about some beer, yeah Barney's right...

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 He seems to really be driving hard at this bobsled thing. It's fascinating, is this some kind of ultimate insult in the Hankzone? 

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Just so there's no confusion, I do think you're this stupid. 



And in case you missed it, that big post with the bold/italicized/underlined heading about the list of items you're wrong about was a list specifying where you misconstrued (or flat out ignored) Bent's comments. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples


Nobody is saying Muhammad Wilkerson is a nose tackle.


We're saying that you're claiming that asking a defensive lineman (like, for example, a nose tackle) to generate pressure while being double-teamed is an impossibly high bar to ask for from a DL, despite the fact that the truly elite defensive linemen (both 3 and 5 tech DLs like Wilkerson and Watt and Casey and McCoy and zero-tech NTs like Ngata and Antonio Garay and Vince Wilfork and Jay Ratliff and Kyle Williams) do precisely that:  Take on double teams while still continually beating a double team and generating pressure anyway.


Damon Harrison is a great NT, but he doesn't take on double teams and beat them that often yet, mainly because Wilkerson is the one drawing those double teams and Wilkerson is the one beating those double teams.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Lolololol. 


I think junior broke into dad's stash this morning. 

Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

@Hanknaples It feels like I'd be giving you too much whatever-the-internet-equivalent-of-air-time-is if I were to copy-paste your entire post, but needless to say... That. That's trolling. Claiming things that are obviously false via incoherent arguments just to get a rise out of well-intentioned folks on the internet, just for the jollies.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples I can only pray that, one day, my jokes are as plentiful and humorous as the ones you've posted here today. 


BOBSLED CAPTAIN.......GET IT!? 

jsadolph
jsadolph

@Hanknaples @tsjc68 

Sometimes when you notice that everyone else has a COMPLETELY different veiw of something you need to step back and reevaluate the stance that you are taking. 

I am not saying that everyone cannot be wrong at times.  But everyone is not wrong EVERY time.  I have been reading your incoherent ramblings for the last few days and and it is comical/sad to see you keep defending the same point over and over again.

I am not saying that I am a football Guru, but it is not hard to see why noone has stepped in and defended your points with you. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @tsjc68 "Amoeba"?  


OOOOOH, THE DEEP BURN!  IT'S SO DEEP!  I'm so shamed that you called me an amoeba who bobsleds.  That's a good one, Hank/Fonzie.


(makes wanking motion)

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Can I be on the bobsled team instead? They have flashier uniforms. 

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 YEAH, GET OUT HERE YOU SINGLE-CELLED ORGANISM! TAKE THAT!


Wait, what? 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @Brendan Hank/Fonzie, you are literally the least knowledgeable football fan on this board.  Even Joey looks intelligent next to you.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples That'd make sense, since Marcus was defining the word you asked him to define. I'd expect the definition of a word to be found in the definition of a word. 

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples TSJC AIN'T GOT SHT ON ME! 



You're mine, dude. *eats paste and crashes into stationary furniture* 

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples No you didn't. Perhaps you should proof read you unintelligible drivel before posting it on the internet. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Hanknaples @Brendan Which will be added to the list of things you're wrong about.


THINGS HANK AND FONZIE HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT:


-Damon Harrison is a great young nose tackle.


THINGS HANK AND FONZIE ARE WRONG ABOUT:


-Everything else, ever.  Literally every single thing Hank/Fonzie have posted on here, other than saying "Damon Harrison is good" has been incorrect.

Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

@Hanknaples Right. Because I defined the word "troll" in it. I'm glad we can at least agree on that being the true definition.

Brendan
Brendan

@Hanknaples Sione Pouha was a great NT and one of the best NY Jets of the past decade. 

jsadolph
jsadolph

@Hanknaples 

I would say that Pouha has the same amout of HOF votes as Rubin.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@jsadolph @Hanknaples I would say that Po'uha deserves far more HoF votes than Rubin does.


Sione Po'uha was, for a time, one of a handful of the best defensive linemen in the game.  Rubin has never played on Po'uha's level.

jsadolph
jsadolph

@tsjc68 @jsadolph @Hanknaples 

I like Sione as much as anyone here.  But I am also realistic enough to see that he probably not get any HOF votes other that the TJB HOF.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@jsadolph @tsjc68 @Hanknaples I wasn't saying that Po'uha would get (or should get) any HoF votes.


I was saying that if we're forced to answer the completely theoretical question of "Who more deserves a HoF vote, Po'uha or Rubin?" the answer is Po'uha.  Neither one was a Hall of Famer, but Po'uha was closer to being one than Rubin has been.