Link: Just worry about getting better first

Chris Wesseling from NFL.com’s Around the League blog wrote recently about the Jets reported interest in Jeremy Maclin and Emmanuel Sanders, and discussed how they might fit in.

Maclin makes plenty of sense, as he played in Philadelphia under offensive coordinator Marty Mornhinweg. The 2009 first-round draft pick and the Eagles have expressed mutual interest in a new contract, so it’s not certain that he will hit the open market.

Provided Maclin’s surgically repaired knee checks out, the Jets view him as a “quality No. 1 receiver.” Sanders would be a decent second fiddle, and the Steelers have 2013 third-round draft pick Markus Wheaton ready to step in and take his place.

Brian Bassett, TheJetsBlog.com

We agree with Wesseling’s assessment on the players that the Jets could be targeting and like the idea of how both Maclin and Sanders could help the offense in distinct ways.  While it is possible to get into a discussion on which potential free agent would be a true number one receiver or a number two receiver, the simple truth is that the Jets need upgrades across most of their skill positions.  The Jets will have a lot of money to throw at the problem of a lackluster receiver corps, but as Miami is demonstrating, money can’t be the only solution.

So since it is going to be virtually impossible to airlift in a Calvin Johnson or Julio Jones type talent in one season, the Jets just need to bring in more talented players and pay them appropriately.  That’s where the notion of whether or not they are a true number one or two comes back into play.  The Jets are going to have to be generous in free agency to attract some receivers (and they have the money to do so), but we’re not going to expect them to be profligate.  Expect them to make signings that will be productive ones for fair prices while they build for the future.




169 comments
Zartan
Zartan

Sammy Watkins is a Jet! Dude is the type NY loves, and one that can thrive here.

J. Smooth
J. Smooth

Honestly, the debate between whether we should draft a TE or WR is kinda pointless. We need WEAPONS, I could care less whether he's a TE or WR. You kinda have to slot Ebron, Amaro, and Seferian-Jenkins into your WR rankings, and simply take the best one available. Free agency shouldn't really matter either, because even if we sign Maclin and/or Sanders, this team cannot have enough weapons. I'd be alright signing Maclin, Sanders, and drafting Lee and an OLB, or if we signed Maclin, Sanders, and took Ebron and DaVante Adams.


My point is, screw trying to put these pieces into specific holes, and instead stockpile weapons and let MM find a place for them later.

Kyle Ely
Kyle Ely

Signing Maclin and drafting Erbon and Matthews would make a good offseason

bob
bob

Sometime teams go out in free agency get big names and nothing happens. "puff".


Maybe the way to go is draft 1st round a receiver 2nd round a receiver after all isn't this the year of receivers in the draft....




a57se
a57se

OK, time to destroy some myths being perpetrated here:

The TOP 14 in 2013 for receiving yards in the NFL were all WR's.

Jimmy Graham was no. 15

The TOP 29 in 2013 for receiving yards were all WR's except for Jimmy Graham.

Jordaan Cameron was no. 30.

24 guys had over 1,000 receiving yards in 2013 and only ONE TE (a guy who is more WR than TE anyway) was in that group.

Lets stop the propaganda that somehow a stud TE is worth more than a stud WR.

cobbold
cobbold

Looking forward to the draft and fa, to see how the jets do, if geno improves with better targets, who knows what 2014 can be

cobbold
cobbold

My dream draft, is round one asj te /round2 Jared a breeders wr/ round 3, first pick donte moncrief wr/ 2nd pick in the third round, Marcus smith for olb

williamg1
williamg1

Let BossHogg play receiver, too, and all our problems are solved. 

j3tsfan29
j3tsfan29

I hate the idea of signing these two wrs. I feel like they aren't much of an upgrade over Nelson or hill. I would rather sign Jarius Byrd, maybe sign up talib. Reports are out that they guess he'd get 6-8 mil per, I believe Byrd would get 11-12 mil per, wich means we'd be about 20 mil per , drop CRo and use his money to resign folk and Howard. Then use remainder of money to resign guys like pace, douzzable, lankster, Cumberland. Come draft time defense is solidified. We can go Ebron at 18 and pick up two wrs in the second third with ol mixed in. I don't want to waste fa money on these two wrs when the secondary is still lacking so badly.

a57se
a57se

@J. Smooth  

Fair enough and I pretty much agree with you, the debating and arguing is pointless. 

I would rank the WR and TE prospects as follow:

1.  Watkins

2.  Beckhan Jr.

3.  Evans

4.  Lee

5.  Ebron

6.  Adams

7.  Robinson

8.  Matthews

9.  Benjamin

10. Amaro

11. Landry

12. Niklas

13. Cooks

14. Moncrief

15. ASJ


This would be my top 15 and I wouldn't be surprised if they are all gone after 2 rounds or by the time we make our 2nd pick in the third.

I am sure others will protest and rank them quite differently!

harvlis
harvlis

@a57se In 2013, Jimmy Graham was second in TD's with 16, behind Jamaal Charles with 19.  Vernon Davis was fifth with 13 TD's.  There was only one receiver in the top 5 -- Demaryus Thomas with 14.  A few years ago, Gronk was second in TD's.  A TE can help an offense in so many ways.  No one is saying to take a TE over a stud WR but, if the top rated receivers are gone, we need a TE so why not get a future star, like Ebron.

juunit
juunit

@a57se  

And the most important part of offense, the scoring TDs part, saw 11 of the top 30 receivers in the league as TEs. With a TE, Jimmy Graham, #1 overall.

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se I'm not sure anyone would argue that a stud TE is worth more than a top WR, but a stud TE does improve your offense.


of the top 40 pass catchers (by yards), 7 were TE's  Graham, Cameron, Gonzalez, Witten, Gates, Davis and Olsen.


New Orleans was 2nd, San Diego was 4th, Atlanta was 7th, Cleveland was 11th, Dallas was 14th, Carolina was 29th, San Francisco was 30th in yds p/g


In points per game, Dallas was 5th, New Orleans 10th, San Francisco 11th, San Diego was 12th, Carolina 18th, Atlanta 20th, Cleveland 27th. 


The point is that a great TE is no guarantee of success, but it certainly improves your offense.



a57se
a57se

Out of the top 40 in receiving yards only 7 were TE's and most of them were 34th and lower.

A few teams actually had TWO WR's with more receiving yards than 5 of the top TE's.

harold
harold

@cobbold


I have been advocating for CB, WR and new ILB in F/A.  I think these things would really help us out.  We obviusly would need to look at if we re-sign Howard, Folk Reed and few other guys.  But all in all if we can get this thing right.  I am with you we can have an excellent season , with Geno's expected development.

harold
harold

@cobbold


That is not a bad draft.  I would trade Abbrederis for Xavier Sua Filo Guard UCLA in the second under your sceanrio.  But this is a really solid lineup.


We get a Quality TE who barring injury can fill that position for 6-8 years


Guard who barring injury can man that position for 8-10 years


Young Wr with size good hands and deceptive speed


And we get a young OLB who can hold up at the point and on the edge and has some pass rush potential.

Brendan
Brendan

@j3tsfan29  If Byrd wants $12 mil a year? Good luck, but no thanks. Re-sign Reed, go with Reed/Allen/Bush/Miles/Jarrett and maybe a draft pick. 

MarshRandy
MarshRandy

@j3tsfan29 Maclin wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Nelson or Hill..... I'm sorry but that's a laughable statement

kniff
kniff

@a57se  I would be happy if we got even ONE of your top ten... and I'm looking forward to your next mock draft, although in the last one all my faves were gone by our overall 18th pick, resulting in a little insomnia!! LOL

a57se
a57se

@harvlis @a57se 

Plenty of people are saying take a TE over a stud WR....that is what I am arguing against.

a57se
a57se

@juunit @a57se 

So WR's are more important for moving the ball into position to sscore and TE's are slightly better when you finall get into position to score.....that is fair. but doesn't change the valuation of the positions.

a57se
a57se

@jdb4 And look at the offenses with the top WR's.....they improve your offense EVEN MORE!


So given the choice, I'llmake WR the priority over TE every day of the week when you need both.

cobbold
cobbold

Harold, I like James jones, fa wide rec. from Green Bay, for our receiving core, based upon the highlights I have seen this years draft has a lot of wr that could be really good for years to come

a57se
a57se

@kniff  

Ah, that last one really wasn't an attempt to predict what will happen, I wanted to set up a scenario that could easily play out where all the guys we really want are gone to see what folks would try and do..... thanks for the encouragement though, i do appreciate it!

a57se
a57se

@jdb4 @a57se 

I presented facts, you presented your opinion.

There is no debating facts....


jdb4
jdb4

@a57se @jdb4

No, I could care less about who is right or wrong.

You behave like a know-it-all and it gets frustrating. 

a57se
a57se

@jdb4 @a57se 

OK, you are right and I am wrong, there, are you happy now?

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se @jdb4 

57, it is very hard to have a discussion with you.  There is never any middle ground.  If someone does not agree with you they are wrong.  That's just sad. 

a57se
a57se

@jdb4 @a57se 

Again, look at the stats. The ONLY TE that comes close to what you are describing is Jimmy Graham who is really just a big WR. Take Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin or Brandon Coleman and put 10 or 15 lbs on them and you have your Jimmy Graham clone if you are lucky.

jdb4
jdb4

@a57se @jdb4Agreed, I'm not arguing against that.



but let's say the Jets are picking 18th and they have a choice between a WR who is very good (lets say Lee, who I think will be very good but never the level of a Jones or C. Johnson), but they don't feel he has an unlimited ceiling vs a TE who could press the defense on almost every play (IMO, Amaro)


All this being said, I feel K. Benjamin would be the guy you want to look at it if you want a top flight WR, but he needs a lot of work on his technique. ( I don't know how the Jets would value him in their system)

harold
harold

@bradysucks


I used that  as basis because when he was last a F/A and younger he only got 3 years 10 million.  Now turning 30 he may get a similar deal or slightly less.  Just hypothetical.

bradysucks
bradysucks

You won't get him that cheap...not happening with James Jones

harold
harold

@cobbold


I like Jones but he will be 30 yrs old.  If we can get him for 3 years 2.5 million per year he may make sense.  Much more than that and he becomes a bad investment IMO.


But if we sign him I would still want another F/A WR if Jones is the choice.

levi
levi

@Brendan  Thanks, I didnt have time to research but it seemed like that would be the case.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude

Well by the same token the best TE prospects should have a lower bust percentage.....and they do. The difference is that no one is so preoccupied with Drafting TE's that they get over valued and drafted earlier then they should.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude @Brendan   Now,  who's putting words in who's mouth with that snarky response.

I'm saying he maximized what little talent he had.  Do you doubt he's an excellent coordinator.

Brendan
Brendan

@bklyndude Completely agree, btw, 2009 was the year that Celek took over as the starting TE, so once he got a guy at TE who was talented, he was 1st or 2nd in receptions in 3 of 4 years. 

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @Brendan 

You are correct, MM is an excellent O'Coordinator and can make lemonade out of lemons.....


bklyndude
bklyndude

@Brendan @bklyndude   I think MM knows what he's doing.  Just give him some weapons.

Think about what he accomplished this year with a rookie QB and less than ideal playmakers.  He will give his stamp of approval on any offensive draft pick,  especially early.

Brendan
Brendan

@bklyndude 


Tight End reception rankings (for team) for Marty-led offenses in Philly:

2012 - 2nd 

2011 - 2nd

2010 - 5th

2009 - 1st

2008 - 3rd

2007 - 5th

2006 - 2nd

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se    

Probably because the ball is thrown to them more and they are faster after the catch resulting in high YAC's.

How many of those 28 would you consider true number ones that require double teams constantly.  How many face the number one CB each week.   Which are playing with a great QB.   Lots of factors to consider.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

Then How come there are 28 WR's with more receiving yards then 2 TE'?

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude   I think if MM had a great TE,  he would know how to use him.  But I agree a great WR is generally more valuable than a great TE.   

But finding WR's that can play and be #1 types at the next level seems to be harder to find than TE's.

Brendan
Brendan

@bklyndude 99 WR's vs. 32 TE's. So it's almost exactly 1/3 as many TE's as WR's. Probably a coincidence, but interesting how that works out. 


Also, you're over-simplifying the WR thing. Teams have gotten lucky lately, but there are also still a lot of early-round busts. Megatron and Fitz aren't common players and the Jets aren't likely to ever be bad enough to be picking early in the draft to the point they're possibly getting that kind of player. 


I will say that the trends seem to be pointing towards WR's being more NFL ready the past 5 or so years, so it's not as dicey of a proposition to draft one early, but let's not act like the team doesn't have its own 2nd round WR draft pick from a couple years ago who has done a whole lot of nothin' for the most part. It's still a coin flip, at best. 

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

Right but you also have to look at HOW your team uses the TE. MM does not FEATURE the TE in his offense unless he doesn't have ANY WR's and even then, he still doesn't target the TE THAT much. A 4th or 5th round guy who can sit diwn in a zone and find a hole is more than enough if he can block for MM.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude   Agreed.  The great WR's with great size or speed are usually gone early.

I think you can find TE's throughout the draft that are decent and productive.  The disparity between them isn't as great as it is with WR's.  TE's usually come into the league with a reputation for catching the ball.  If that doesn't work out,  many of them have the size to contribute as blockers in the running game.   WR's  if they don't pan out,  there's always so many in the next draft.

An example is Stephen Hill.  If he doesn't pan out as a threat real soon,  fans and organization will be quick to look for somebody else,  no matter how good a blocker he might be.

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude @a57se 

They didn't have any trouble with Calvin johnson, Kulio Jones etc.......the top tier talent they are pretty good at identigying.

It is the next level where everyone struggles.....

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @bklyndude  I'm saying not only do we not know what it takes for a WR to be successful in the NFL,  I'm saying the scouts have just as much trouble.

Brendan
Brendan

@bklyndude Well, for starters there are, at minimum, two starting WR's, so there's more demand. Many teams use base sets with three WR's, increasing demand further. Then, as you say, you have athleticism playing a big role into scouting ("potential"), so I would think that increases the pool of players that would normally not get picked without the greater demand. 


TE's seem to be the safer picks, so I think it's a matter of the team just sitting where it is and, if they have a TE or WR in the top 20 or so on their draft board and want to take him? Go for it. 


The idea that you shouldn't take a TE because it's not as important is silly, as is the idea that they have lesser impacts right away than WR's, who are notorious for struggling to make early impacts as rookies. Ebron or ASJ could be useful right away, watching more of Amaro has left me rather unimpressed. 

a57se
a57se

@bklyndude  

Yeah, like we know how to evaluate WR's better than scouts do!

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @Brendan   Probably the scouts falling in love with the athleticism of WR's but not identifying whether they can get the separation through strength or quickness off the line of scrimmage.   Most of these guys can catch the ball when they are open.

a57se
a57se

@Brendan  

Why do you think that may be?

I think it is because WR's are so important that teams over value them vs. TE's who are NOT as important and therefore undervalued.

Brendan
Brendan

I just went back even further, to 2000. The 2000-2006 range was startling awful for WR draft picks. Out of 62 WR's taken in the first two round forty five were busts. That's a 72% bust rate. In that same time span, 20 tight ends were taken and 12 were busts, for a 60% bust rate. 


So, while tight ends are taken far less often, they seem to have a legitimately smaller chance of being busts.   

Brendan
Brendan

@levi I just went back through the past five years and picked every WR/TE taken in the first two rounds ("bust" territory, imo) and counted who were worthwhile picks, and who were busts. Different picks are more important than others, obviously, so that mattered in whether I counted them as a bust or not. By my count, there were 12 TE's taken in the first two rounds the past five years, while there were 37 WR's. Using my arbitrary "bust"-meter, I counted 4 TE busts, or a 33% bust rate. For WR's, I counted 21, or a 56% bust rate. I can post the actual counts if you want, but it's long. 

bradysucks
bradysucks

A TE isn't worth a 1st round pick period....especially a veteran TE...

bradysucks
bradysucks

I'd take either of them at TE

Whitten or Miller

a57se
a57se

@levi @gjet93 

Why post this opinion at all? Without any research who cares what you think. Do some research and add something to the discussion, PLEASE!

harold
harold

@gjet93 @harold@a57se@Brendan


I think what you may find is many (not all) of the TE's who are drafted in first 3 rounds are still in the league and are viable starters/ key contributors (not all are stars but replacement level or above players).  While most high pick wideouts, are still in the league I think the percentage of starters and /or key contributors would be less.  Just in glancing at some of the past drafts.

bklyndude
bklyndude

@Brendan @bklyndude   Yeah,  Evans is the guy who would have more value to the Jets with his size and skill assuming Watkins is gone in the top ten.  IF Evans were still available at 14,  I would think the Jets would have to entertain moving up if they could work something out.   

Ebron while not a perfect TE might be the most ready to step in and make a difference for Geno.   ASJ offers a lot,  but his separation ability at the next level combined with Geno would be harder to be that difference maker right away.

levi
levi

@gjet93 Without doing any research I would guess WR's bust more often. Hopefully Idzik and the new regime can draft better than the old one. Not just TE's either.

Brendan
Brendan

@bklyndude I think Marty will make use of any of these guys they take, he knows how to utilize the strengths of limited players. 


I would still love Evans (assuming Watkins goes top-10), but I doubt he's available. I'd still take Lee over any of the TEs or other WRs, though. 

gjet93
gjet93

@harold @a57se@Brendan I worry about drafting a TE in round one. It's a different game now but I recall Jet poor picks of Kyle Brady, Johnny Mitchell and Doug Jolley for a high pick. I hope that we can get a TE in round 2 or 3. I would like to see data on this but do WRs bust at a greater rate than TEs?

bklyndude
bklyndude

@a57se @harold @Brendan  

Good discussion on prospects.  I'm not sure which if any of these guys can be immediate difference makers. ASJ and Beckham should both be good pros.   

But Beckham is as good as Watkins and Lee.    This is some statement which I don't think is accurate.

harold
harold

@a57se @harold@Brendan


Now Beckham is only as good as Watkins in your world.  Don't think anyone else is walking out on that ledge with you.  Beckham's upside is great.  But his downside may be greater.

levi
levi

I am levi a guy on a blog with an opinion on TE's. And that shouldnt be mocked.

harold
harold

@a57se @levi


It was a response to you saying cut the crap about 5'11.  I was saying give me the 6'6" Mackey award winning TE to the 5'11 return man /slash WR

a57se
a57se

@harold @Brendan 

You are trying to make the same argument about Beckham that I am making about the TE's.....the difference is Beckham is THAT much better than similar guys further down the rankings.

Beckham is as good as Watkins and Lee.

harold
harold

@Brendan @harold


He definitely is not that.  I like Beckham.  I just think the 1st round is a little rich for my blood at that size.  Is he that much better than similar guys his size you can take later in the draft?  That is my point.  I think ASJ with a full off season in an NFL program has tremendous upside.  He has proven even with a very average TE he is better than similar player his size.  I don't think Beckham has the same resume.

a57se
a57se

@levi  

 We are talking in the 1st round vs 6'6" TE

Tell me what that is supposed to mean? Tell me that shouldn't be mocked?

a57se
a57se

@levi @a57se 

Are you keeping score or something??? Who are you and who do you think you are?

levi
levi

@harold Im a lover (of football) not a fighter.

Brendan
Brendan

@harold  I mean, I realize Cal sucked this year, but on the long TD run to put Washington up 24-7 right before the half against them this year, ASJ drives down on the DE, and when the DE spins out, ASJ continues blocking him to the outside (where the DE's momentum was taking him), creating the lane the RB cut back into for the long TD. The potential is there, at least, and he seems a willing blocker, not a big ninny like people make him out to be. 



levi
levi

@harold I didnt mean to defend you. You do that well on your own. It just wears thin on me.


Anyway I would like one of the top TE's in the draft.

harold
harold

@Brendan


I like him because this was a weakness and now it is a positive part of his game that will get better as he gets into an NFL weight program.


Lastly I believe he will develop his functional speed as well in the right program.  Guys like Rice kept getting better and better as they refined this part of their game

harold
harold

@levi @a57se


I appreciate it.  If you disagree too much he can be a little difficult, but I still enjoy debating with him despite his cantankerous ways.  lol

harold
harold

@Brendan @harold


I understand where you are coming from. 


ASJ came into college a tremendous receiving TE.  Evovled into a complete TE and won the Mackey Award as top TE. 


Odell Beckham has evolved from a very inconsistent player to a quality WR.  He can return punts and Kickoffs.  But still drops some leaves some big plays on the filed see TCU game.  He played very well dropped an easy bomb. 


NFL ready


ASJ definitely, OBJ not so sure.  OBJ is very small and struggled when people could get their hands on him.  Great speed and change of direction.

Brendan
Brendan

@harold ASJ can block. Everything I've ever watched on him, he uses his size well. If I was to be critical, I'd say he doesn't impose his will the way you'd expect from someone his size, but he uses his body well to seal off defenders, which is what most teams ask of their TEs in run blocking. 


Edit: That's not an observation of watching 10 minutes of film today, that's based on everything I've seen to date. 

levi
levi

@a57se Why would you do that? He seems to be treating you decent and making valid points.

Brendan
Brendan

@harold Like I said, I'm watching tape on these guys today (watching ASJ right now, actually). And these types of rankings, at least for me, are usually splitting hairs. The difference between those two in my eyes (while being drastically different players) isn't that much in terms of my desire to see them on the Jets. 

levi
levi

@a57se I'd say theres a hell of a lot more to being a top TE than being 6'6''.

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

Yeah, that's what I said! Just like you said Beckhan Jr. has stone hands and is a midget whoi will fall apart the first time he is hit in the NFL.

I'll have to continue this with you later, I have things to do right now!

harold
harold

@a57se @harold


Now ASJ can't block, okay.  You have the audacity to put elite prospects like, Arthur Lynch, Marcel Jensen and Jordan Navjar.  Well I need to just be quiet.  If we get thses guys we are all set.  Sorry for doubting you @a57se.  We are going to the Chip with thse guys. 

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

there are plenty of 6'6" TE's in this draft with solid potential who can ALREADY BLOCK who will be available later on. 

Troy Niklas, Arthur Lynch, CJ Fiedorowicz, Marcel Jensen, Crockett Gilmore and Jordan Navjar......being 6'6" tall is not all that unique.

harold
harold

@Brendan @harold


Taking OBJ over ASJ seems questionable.  One guy is the Mackey award winner.  The other is a smallish WR with speed and good but inconsistent hands.  Just don't see it.  

harold
harold

@a57se


We are talking in the 1st round vs 6'6" TE

Brendan
Brendan

@harold  


Watkins>Evans>Lee>Ebron>OBJ>ASJ>Amaro


I think that's where I stand right now. I'm going to watch more tape on all of these guys today, but that top-3 isn't changing anytime soon. 

a57se
a57se

@harold  

Oh stop with the 5'11" crap.....yesterday you were talking about signing Maclin or Tate or Sanders....

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se@Brendan 

Not really.....a bust is a bust. most teams carry 5 to 6 WR's and typicall 3 TE's AND MOST TEAMS PLAY 4 OF THOSE wr'S AND 2 OF THOSE te'S BUT THE wr'S GET MORE REPS AND MORE TOUCHES.

for the Caps, I fat fingered Caps lock and don't feel like retyping it all.

harold
harold

@a57se @harold


When you are picking at 18 you want to hit on the pick.  If you think the TE is safer and still has upside to be a very good football player.  I take the lower floor player.  I just would not take a 5'11 WR at 18 who may not translate to the league.  I would rather take a player, who is similar to players I have seen translate many times in ASJ.  That is my point.

harold
harold

@a57se @harold@Brendan


I can go down the list but it is not pretty at the WR spot.  As I mentioned most bust at TE are solid starters.  Many Wr's don't even become that, that is the difference I stated

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

If you believe the TE position is just as important as the WR position, then your position makes sense.......if notm then you go WR.

harold
harold

@a57se


Their is nothing similar to Kyle Brady who was simply a product of great team at Penn State.  Jenkins had a very average QB and still played well.  Mitchell was a nutcase. 


Lastly I would rather hit on a great player be it WR or TE.

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se@Brendan 

Tell that to the two Jets busts I mentioned..... the percentage of TE's that bust is just as high as WR's, there are just a lot more WR's drafted and More WR's drafted earky because of the importance of the position!

Brendan
Brendan

@harold He's fluid, my issue was never his footwork, it's just that he looks so slow on tape. I think at the NFL level the only way he generates any considerable YAC is if it's a good play that gets him the ball in space where there isn't a defender to tackle him immediately (or slow him down for the calvary to arrive). 


He is pretty athletic for a guy with his bulk, I'd agree with that, and he does seem to have good hands, but his speed is a big concern for me. If all he'll be able to do at the next level is run 8 yards and box out a defender for a catch with no YAC, he's not worth the first rounder. I'm going to be very interested in his testing results. If he is more athletic than I believe he is, I'd probably at least accept it if he was pick, even if I won't be happy about it. 

harold
harold

@a57se @Brendan@harold


TE is an easier position to project than WR so I like to take the more sure prospect.  I would take him and develop my WR in the 2nd and third with players like Adams, Cooks and Moncrief.  When you miss on WR's you often times don't even get a good starter.  At TE when you miss yu stll usually get a quality starter just maybe not the star you hoped for.  I think if you have similar ratings take the surer thing.

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

Your while question is silly because you don't know if Ebron is Jason Witten or Johnnie Mitchell.

You don't know if ASJ is Heath Miller or Kyle Brady.

I'd rather hit on a WR than a TE all things being equal.

THAT is the choice not an 8 time pro bowl TE.

harold
harold

@Brendan @harold


Can we a least agree he can be this type of player when you watch him.  I think you undervalue his movement skills (former basketball player), but I think you have to admit he is a least as athletic and has the balls skills of these guys. 

harold
harold

@a57se @harold


But that is not the question.  You hit on an 8x Pro Bowler in Witten or a 2x Pro Bowler in Miller.  You get what you expected.  A mid to late first rounder is generally expected to be a Pro Bowl caliber player.  That is the mandate.  If the player is a Pro Bowler you run the card up to the podium and don't look back if he is the guy you want.


I think ASJ will make mulitple Pr Bowls if healthy.  So with that thought I wouldn't hesitate. 


But you say you wouldn't take a 8x Pro Bowler in Witten is baffling.

Brendan
Brendan

@harold  I've always lamented what could have been with Miller, he's a great all-around TE. WItten is the second-most prolific passer in the league's history at the TE position, I would of course sign up for that at 18. 


Our differences on the type of player ASJ is aside, I would absolutely sign up for a Miller-type at 18. And anyone who wouldn't sign up for Witten at 18 is actually insane. The guy is top-20 all time in receptions, blocks like an OL...every Jets fan should want that at 18. 

a57se
a57se

@harold @a57se 

Miller is a decent TE but I wouldn't take him over Julio Jones or AJ Green or Josh Gordon or Antonio Brown or 20 other WR;s in the NFL.

harold
harold

@a57se @harold


You don't think a multiple time Pro Bowler would be worth a first round pick?  Not sure what your bar is for draft picks, but it sounds high

a57se
a57se

@harold  

Heath Miller would not be worth the 18th pick in the draft......neither would Jason Witten but I would take Witten over Miller every day of the week.

harold
harold

@Brendan @harold


A kinder, and gentler Brendan in 2014 I can live with that.  Then again I need someone to debate with.


So would you sign up for ASJ in first round if he turned out ot have a Heath Miller type career?   How about Jason Witten? 


You guys don't feel he is dynamic, I do but that is the debate.  But under your premise he would be limited to these guys.


I feel ASJ is a bit more dynamic but would you sign up for that?