Daily Links: So long Sammy

  • Sammy Watkins will be long gone by the time the Jets pick. [ESPN NY]
  • Five standouts from last night’s NFLPA Collegiate Bowl in LA. [CBS Sports]
  • An account of Connor Shaw’s Collegiate Bowl. [Philly]
  • More details on the game from TSN. [TSN]
  • Garoppolo lived up to the hype at the Shrine game. [NFL]
  • The East’s defense at the Shrine Game looked dominant. [ESPN]



87 comments
Marty Luc
Marty Luc

bottom line is the jets need a difference making receiver in this draft to compliment kerley. te or wr it doesn't matter to me. as long as he can stretch the field, stay healthy, catch the ball when it's thrown to him and hopefully be a pro bowl candidate in a few years. 

Scott Berger-Felder
Scott Berger-Felder

Allen Robinson from penn state would be my choice. he has all the tools to me. Speed, agility and route running. Mike Evans is too big  and too slow to be a WR in the NFL. he might have to switch to TE. Marquis lee is fast but not a great route runner and doesn't have  side to side mobility. Ebron is no better then Cumberland.

a57se
a57se

I didn't watch Texas Tech this season so I hadn't seen Jace Amaro play. Now that I have had some time to watch tape of him, I am not a big fan. I don't think this guy is worth a 3rd round pick.

His athleticism is average at best and I think he is basically a product of the system at TTU. He catches the ball well enough but the offense he plays in gets him open, not his route running or physical dominance.

It may be just my eyes but he also seems a little top-heavy to me and guys like that don't uually last long in the NFL.


marcus81
marcus81

there are 8-8 teams that beat use and are drafting ahead of us, a WR and TE must be drafted in the first two rounds, unless Clowney falls to us

bradysucks
bradysucks

I am not a big fan of using the 18th pick on a TE. I'd rather trade back and see if we get Ebron or Amaro at the end of round 1. The highlights on Ebron are impressive though. He's an athletic freak who made some incredible catches. The guy is definitely a match up nightmare. I'd be pretty happy if we could get Lee at 18 and possibly trade up in the 2nd round or the end of round 1 and grab Ebron if he's there. That would be a big upgrade on offense if we could get lucky and snag both Lee and Ebron in this draft. Players do fall in the draft process so it could happen ....ya just never know. Keenan Allen was supposed to be a 1st round pick last year and the Chargers ended up getting a bargain when he fell on draft day

a57se
a57se

I had watched Eric Ebron during the College season only against Duke and during that game he was pretty good but not anywhere near the sure thing he is hyped as. Now that I have spent some time watching him vs. a few other teams and with Bryn Renner throwing the ball, I see what all the fuss is about. 

Ebron is basically a big WR who can block a little. His blocking technique needs work but it is coachable as most of his issues are leverage based and he is willing. 

His receiving is pretty darn good both inline and split out wide. Based on what I saw on the games I watched, I would not be surprised if he is gone before we pick. I could see several of the teams in front of us taking him.


frustjetfn
frustjetfn

So Watkins will be gone by 18? Wow, what a surprise! Better get used to lots of these stories going into the draft. The cost of those last few games has been beaten to death so I won't go there, but I will quote my last remark: "I hope you're just as happy on draft day."


WRT the Shrine game: It was boring, but I was somewhat impressed by Garoppolo. I see similarities between him and Testaverde beyond their Italian heritage. They are both big, strong QB's and Garoppolo is supposed to have one of the strongest arms in the draft. Garoppolo also seems to have a better touch on his passes which is something Vinny didn't exhibit until later in his career and can flick the ball to get it out quickly. He might be available at 18 if the Jets aren't really committed to giving Geno the next 4 years to develop.

a57se
a57se

Another observation from my film watching is that Jalen Saunders is pretty similar to Brandin Cooks as a player. He is ranked much lower because of his size, 5'9" and 160 LBs. but he is a tough little guy from what I've seen on tape. here is the OK. OK. St. game and on the tape there are several times where you see Saunders block guys twice his size! This kid is the definition of scrappy!


http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jalen-saunders-vs-oklahoma-state-2013/

a57se
a57se

Watching the E-W Shrine game yesterday I was amazed at how much time Mayock spent hyping Garoppolo! He was the best QB on the field but he has some real accuracy issues and his arm doesn't seem to be that strong. I don't think he lived up to the hype unless you had rose colored glasses on.

a57se
a57se

Sammy may be gone but there are a lot of WR's to like in this draft.

I watched some more tape yesterday and the more I watch Odell Beckham Jr. the more I like him.

He high points the ball and wins routinely in contested catches. He is elusive and can turn a short pass into a big play. Looks really good on returns as well.

Here is a link to the Miss. St. game, see for yourself!

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/odell-beckham-jr-vs-mississippi-state-2013/


I think Beckham and Lee are very close talent wise and if Lee is gone at 18, I hope the Jets take this guy. I don't think he will stay as a late first - early 2nd round guy through the combine and Pro Days.

Mateen Kemet
Mateen Kemet

@Scott Berger-Felder man you are waaaayyyy  off base here.  Lee is the most NFL ready WR in the draft and his strength is rote running with explosive speed.   Evans too big @ 225? ebron no better than cumberland?

mustang66
mustang66

Scott where you getting your information from? I'll take lee or Evans in the blink of an eye. You really need to watch some tape before your comment. Robinson is number 4 or five on the wide receiver list

Brendan
Brendan

@Scott Berger-Felder Route-running is one of Lee's strengths, his ability to run complex routes without slowing down is one of the things that separates him from other WR's in this class. He's probably NFL-ready in that regard. 

frustjetfn
frustjetfn

@marcus81That's due to the stupid SOS. Head to head on same record and last 5 yrs of playoff appearances would make more sense, but WTF.

Mateen Kemet
Mateen Kemet

@bradysucks THAT would be awesome.   I would draft a TE over a WR thought in the 1st, only because of the big man theory :  When 2 players of equal talent, at similar positions are available, take the BIGGER player s they are harder to come by.   This was our rationale per Rex when we took Coples vs ingram.   A 290lb man that can do most of the same things is more valuable becasue there are somethings that bigger player will do that samller player just physically cannot do.    EBROn can actually black in run game a little plus may be explosive.  A special TE is much harder to find than a very good WR.  PLUS what if we get Maclin or Nicks in FA

mustang66
mustang66

instead of trading down, I'd rather trade up to see if we could get Sammy Watkinsif he drops to number 7 like some people have been doing. Anybody out there have any ideawhat it would cost to move from 18 to 7? with 12 draft picks this year I think it's a good move to get a no brainer

a57se
a57se

@frustjetfn 

Garoppolo is not going to be picked on Day one.........at least he shouldn't be picked then.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se 9/12 for 100 yards and a TD is a pretty stat line. Were they just gimme passes? Did a bunch of it come on a big play? I didn't watch, but based on reports, everyone is saying he was the best QB yesterday and really helped his draft stock. 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se For #18? No thanks. He has good raw skill and good hands, but he just ran go routes that entire video, except for his TD. Maybe that's all that was asked a him, but based on that video he's not a 1st round WR, imo. He also seems like a deep threat type of WR and nothing like the type of player Lee is (route running is night-and-day between the two, based on this video).

bradysucks
bradysucks

Unlikely - TE's historically don't get picked in the top 20 of round 1 and when they do the value usually isn't there. The exceptions are guys like Tony Gonzales and Vernon Davis.....and Ebron and Amaro aren't likely as good as either of those guys.....One of them should be there early in round 2 or at the end of round 1

frustjetfn
frustjetfn

@a57se@frustjetfnI agree, but we'll know more after watching him in the Senior Bowl. As you know QB's almost always climb on draft day, which is why it was curious that Geno fell to Round 2 in a weak QB draft.


Time will tell who's a franchise QB and who's not, but I just don't want to be sitting here 4 years down the road with the fans saying should've / could've and management touting another God's gift - be patient story. So bottom line for me is if ANY QB falls who you think maybe a franchise-type you pick him even if you have 2 others at that position. It is the MOST important position in football and if you're loaded you can always trade one for multiple picks and  / or players. It's like pitching: you can never have too much and injuries do happen.

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

He made a couple really nice passes but most were pitch and catch. He also made some poor throws missing high and behind the target. His TD throw was high and slightly behind but the CB played the slant so badly it didn't matter.

MarshRandy
MarshRandy

@Brendan @a57se I watched most of his snaps last night. He did make a couple pretty passes but what made him really stand out was the putrid play of every other QB in the game

Marcus Armstrong
Marcus Armstrong

@Brendan @a57se He's worth 18, IMO. I don't recall that specific tape, but I watched 6 games on him... Came away very impressed.

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

Go routes? What were you watching? Miss. St. is playing a two deep zone and most of those completions to Beckham were between a CB and a S and contested.

Eddy Lopez
Eddy Lopez

@MarshRandy @a57se  Jordan Mathews will not be there in our 2nd pick unless some how we can draft back in the 1st I wouldn't mind picking him up and getting some more picks if Idzik sees we could get more value.


I like Jarvis Jones in the 2nd rd also wr from LSU he moves good and has good hands what you guys think?

a57se
a57se

@MarshRandy@a57se  

Matthews is a good looking prospect but he isn't as dynamic as Lee and Beckham.He does have his moments though as you can see in the tape vs. South Carolina. One thing with Matthews that he really needs to chamge is catching the ball in his body when the throw allows him to. He CAN catch the ball with his hands as he does several times on this tape but if the ball is at his midsection he body catches it and that will lead to drops.


http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jordan-matthews-vs-south-carolina-2013/

bradysucks
bradysucks

Yes Ebron has big upside....I could live with him at pick 18 but I'd prefer to pick a WR at 18 if a good one is there. The Jets need a #1 receiver more than they need a receiving TE.

Ebron is intriguing though....the guy is a monster...but so was Johnny Mitchell who the Jets drafted in round 1 back in the day and Mitchell was a BUST

bradysucks
bradysucks

Ebron is the TE with the most upside.....but he is basically a WR with limited blocking ability like Dustin Keller....was Keller worth a mid 1st round pick? I do like Ebron though....He is an intriguing talent...

I'd still rather have an all purpose TE like Gronkowski or Heath Miller than guys like Gonzales, Davis, Ebron, & Keller...

a57se
a57se

@bradysucks 

The last TE taken in the top 20 was Vernon Davis and I think many teams will look at Ebron in the same light........time will tell.

frustjetfn
frustjetfn

@a57se@DrJonathanReeferAnd Romo and Warner were undrafted, so SImms will be our next franchise QB, right?


The book is open on Geno. My argument has always been to go by what you see on the field (i.e., performance), not on speculation and hope b/c the funny thing is is that's all that counts.

a57se
a57se

@DrJonathanReefer 

as did Dan Marino which gives you hope for Geno but for every Rodgers or Marino there are a hundred others guys. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

The rules make it a little boring and from all accounts, Romeo Crennel was a disaster.......

I wouldn't say it was really sloppy but  it is hard to get a feel for certain guys in that type of situation.


MarshRandy
MarshRandy

@Brendan @a57se oh yea. Pretty hideous game but that's expected when it's a bunch of guys who've never played with one another 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se So was the game itself pretty bad? It sounds like it was really sloppy. 

a57se
a57se

@Bent@MarshRandy@Brendan@a57se 

Matthews looks the part but needs a lot of work. I would bring him in as a UDFA or 7th round comp pick.......Practice Squad as his destination. Lee might be able to make something of him and you have to like his arm and his size.

Brendan
Brendan

@MarshRandy Yeah, I saw the guy from NIU had an absolute nightmare. I guess it's not hard to impress when he's among the competition. 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Lee has exceptional route running, I don't think anyone would say anything like that about Beckham. Different players, man. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se

The thing you are leaving out is the different offense they play in. That is the difference in the routes they run.

Lee doesn't run sophisticated routes either.

Beckham has the same tools as Lee except he is a better catcher of the ball. Lee is a little more dynamic when healthy.


Brendan
Brendan

@a57se I never said he runs only go routes, I said he runs predominantly vertical routes. A post pattern is a vertical route, especially the skinny posts that he runs. When he runs 15 yards and stops, a "hook" as you called it, that's still a vertical route, they're just optioning the route based on how he's being played. I'm not going to review every play with you. 


My comment was very fair, he's a good player, but I don't know how you say he's similar to Lee. My Lee/Brown Beckham/Smith comparison was pretty fair, I thought. Beckham is going to be a player that pushes the defense backwards and whose best tool will be his speed, not route running. I'm not arguing him being a good player, I just don't think your picking the right comparison for him. 

a57se
a57se

@Brendan@a57se 

Your review is just plain wrong. Amazing hoiw we could watch the same video and come up with two totally different takes. I am going to break down EVERY play here so maybe we can get a reliable and accurate pciture of the composite video.:


First throw to Beckham on a 3rd and 27 is a post pattern against a two deep zone where Mettenberger actually makes a good throw and Beckham makes a really nice catch in traffic for a forst down. (vs. N. Texas St) This play is between 2 punt returns for TD's over 60 yards each by Beckham.


2nd throw to Beckham is a quick slant with the CB in off coverage that picks up about 6.

Third pass is a go route that Mettenberger overthrew him on though he had a step.

4th pass is a bubble screen for a first down.That was it for the North texas Game.


1st pass vs. Florida was a hook route for 8 yards.


2nd pass is another Hook route for 9.


3rd pass was a sweet double move where he got the CB to bite on an in cut then he broke up the field and gained about 50 yards before Matt Elam could bring him down.


4th pass is a comeback route on the sideline when Mettenberger had gotten flushed from the pocke for a 15 yard gain.


5th pass is a go route where Purefoy did a good job of cutting Beckham off. That was the last pass intended clearly for Beckham.


1st pass against Alabama was a deep Out pattern where Beckham slipped coming out of his break but Mettenberger also threw a very high pass and Beckham couldn't quite bring it in.


2nd pass was a go route where mettenberger stared down Beckham and threw a bad pass.


3rd pass was an out for 12 yards.


4th pass a quick out for 6 and a first down.


5th pass was a really nice play as Beckham fond the open area in the Alabama zone and ended up gaining 20 yards.


6th pass Beckham makes a great catch on a deep Out for another big gain That was his last catch vs. Ala.

1st pas vs. Arkansas was a deep out vs. a zone defense that Beckham caught between the CB and the safety and ran for 15 more yards after the catch.

2nd pass another out/hook by Beckham for 12...except he lost control of the ball when he hot the ground.


3rd pass was a slant that the CB jumped and broke up.


4th pass was a hook route that Mettenberger overthrew Beckham on.


5th pass was another Hook route into an opening vs. a zone for 9 yards. The pass was low and behind him but he made the adjustment and picked it off the deck.


6th pass was a slant for 6


7th pass was a go route where Beckham had two steps on his guy and Mettenberger overthrew him.

8th pass is another Hook route for 12 that Beckham turned into 30.

So to summarize:

I counted:

4 Go routes

10 Hook/Out routes of varying depth.

3 slants

1 bubble screen

1 Post

1 Double move In and Up

and a few plays where he found soft spots in the zone or was targeted after the play broke down.

that was out of 23 targets shown on this tape.

These routes are what Cam Cameron scripted for him.  and are closer to what he'll run un the pros then the bubble screens Watkins ran 80% of the time.

4 out of 23 is only about 17% of the time for go routes.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Sorry, had to run and grab some groceries for the pork roast today. 


UAB - Clearly not playing NFL-level competition, but he had a great game. He also ran vertical routes on every offensive play shown except two: his bubble screen and the broken play where the QB ran (he broke off his route and sat in what he thought was a spot in the zone, it wasn't a come-back and the play wasn't designed for him, so I think he just kind of stopped). He also had a horrendous block (or no block) early on in the video and he inexplicably jumped into his teammate who might have scored otherwise later on. Very good game from him, albeit against bad competition. 


TCU - much better sample, with Beckham matching up with Jason Verrett (who I like quite a bit) for much of the game. MUCH better blocking in this video, he actually finds his man and finishes blocks, which he didn't do against UAB. He had a couple of drops (one on a deep pass that may have been a TD with a better throw), but he also ran almost entirely vertical routes. He had an deep out that he made a great catch on, on a play inside the 10 yard line he ran about 5 yards and just stopped (the QB threw it away), and he did the "sit in the zone" not-exactly-a-comeback thing a couple more times. But, again, overwhelmingly ran vertical routes. It's also obvious he has elite returner skills, something that the Jets could definitely use. 


Compilation video - more of the same from Beckham: very good ball skills, few routes. It's like watching someone play Madden, they run play-action corner route plays for him over and over, but because of his ability they are able to do it. He ran a slant in the North Texas game for a short gain, he ran a couple of deep outs (showing route running that ranged from "rounded and lazy" to "precise and near-perfect"), he ran a ton of those deep option routes where, depending on how the DB is playing him, he either stopped and the QB delivered a strike or he tried to just run right past him. These routes worked very well for LSU because DB's obviously respect his speed. More great return stuff. 


He ran an overwhelming % of vertical routes. That's his game, it seems. He's very fast, he's very athletic and he seems to have a natural ability to adjust his route when a play breaks down and a QB has to vacate the pocket. But not once in that video did I see an elaborate double/triple-move route from him. He does step-and-go cuts on deep routes against DB's who are turning and running before he gets to them just so they don't get blown by. I would expect NFL teams to press him early on to see how he does getting off the LOS, but assuming he adjusts to that he'll be a good intermediate-to-deep type of WR. He's not Antonio Brown, which is what Lee resembles, he's Torrey Smith. That's not a knock on Beckham, he seems like a very good prospect, but I wouldn't want him at #18. 

a57se
a57se

@Eddy Lopez@a57se@MarshRandy@levi@Brendan 

He needs more work than just learning a play book. He won't be able to work on his game until he is healed.

I am not trying to eliminate him as a possibility, just pointing out he is a multi year project and probably two years away from even being competitive.

Eddy Lopez
Eddy Lopez

@Brendan How about trading down in the 1st if some how Evans, Lee, Amaro are gone maybe move to the mid 20's and Get a decent TE like Ebron if he would fall or a WR and notch a extra 2nd pick?

MarshRandy
MarshRandy

@Eddy Lopez @levi @Brendan I would go for Mettenberger if we could grab him in like the 4th. No QB early unless it's Manziel or Bridgewater and they'll both be long gone at 18

Eddy Lopez
Eddy Lopez

@levi @Brendan nah no QB in the 1st we don't need that we need offense let Geno grow. If we do draft a QB 4th and on would be good.


if LEE falls to the 18th pick its a must we take him he is legit 

a57se
a57se

BTW, Brendan, watch Sammy Watkins vs. Ohio State. 90% of his catches were bubble screens and the other ten percent were verticals. No one complains about that. This is what you get in college. Limited route trees.

levi
levi

@Brendan I forgot about Evans, Im also not against taking a QB if one falls.

Brendan
Brendan

@levi I'd take Evans over either TE, but if he's also gone I'd go for Amaro. 

levi
levi

@Brendan @a57se  If Lee isnt there I would take one of the top two TE's(Ebron, amero)if they are still there.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se He runs verticals, over and over. Corners, post-corners, the only time he did something else was on the TD (which we don't get to see well in that video). On one play he just sat in a hole in the zone, which shows good awareness, but he didn't run a single elaborate route that entire video. He seems like a speedy guy who runs verticals in the NFL, based on this video.