Checking in on the preseason power rankings

A few websites of late have been doing preseason power rankings … did the Jets fall in the thirties again this year?  It would seem not, with the Jets landing more towards the middle of the pack than they did a year ago … but no one is preparing for their Super Bowl run either.

Here’s Josh Alper’s blurb for PFT

19th

The Jets need a consistent and reliable quarterback if they are going to be a consistent playoff participant and they aren’t sure if they have one.

[…]

There’s more certainty about the quality of the offensive talent around the quarterbacks this year, though. Adding Eric Decker, Chris Johnson and Jace Amaro gives the Jets a much deeper group of options at skill positions to go with a defense that did a very good job on the way to last year’s 8-8 record. Even a modest bump in production at quarterback would give the Jets the right to think about the playoffs, so the pressure is on

Yahoo!’s Frank Schwab writes a projection on Shutdown Corner but is a little less sanguine than Alper.

23rd

I just don’t think the Jets have the quarterback play to get over the hump. I think Smith will be better, and in a perfect world he’d be a solid quarterback by year three or four, but good luck finding that kind of patience in that market. The schedule and offensive issues might prevent the Jets from reaching .500. If that’s the case, it’ll be interesting if Ryan survives for another season.

Also, here’s one from right after the draft from Elliot Harrison at NFL.com:

17th

It was hard not to like the Jets’ draft. While we’re at it, let’s give some kudos to Rex Ryan for admitting some homerism in the selection of quarterback Tajh Boyd. Or call it quasi-nepotism; Ryan’s son played with Boyd at Clemson, so the New York coach made the move. All good. A sixth-rounder shouldn’t threaten Geno Smith, anyway.

Brian Bassett, TheJetsBlog.com

Last year’s many rankings of the Jets at or near the bottom of the barrel was harsh.  We said so at the time and that we believed them to a better team.  Over the course of the 2013 season, the Jets demonstrated that while the team had some building and growth to do, they were not as bad as many analysts had said.

This year the team is in the middle of the pack, and we cam understand where the analysts are coming from again.  The Jets surprised many last year with a strong finish, and did nothing but make themselves stronger in the offseason.  The offense got better with multiple acquisitions while the defense got younger and more physical in their secondary to pair with a young and talented defensive line.  Analysts will give the Jets the benefit of their work from last year in concert with their improvements, but until the Jets can start consistently get back to the playoffs, they’ll stay out of the top twelve spots in rankings until such a time.

This will be the year for the Jets coaches and players to demonstrate that they need to be among those discussions





238 comments
Joey Cimino
Joey Cimino

Click the link below to sign the petition to have Rich Cimini replaced as the Jets beat writer!


https://www.change.org/petitions/espn-replace-rich-cimini-as-beat-writer-for-the-new-york-jets


By the way - I will post this link on every single Jets post, every single day that I possibly can. I will send this link to every Jets fan I know, and post it on as many message boards as I can. I am SICK AND TIRED of Rich Cimini being the Jets Beat Writer for ESPN.

Bent
Bent moderator

In honor of TJB Hall of Fame week, I have the fun fact to end all fun facts...


Jets all-time leaders in completion percentage (minimum 500 attempts):


In reverse order...


5. Boomer Esiason 58.7

4. Ken O'Brien 58.8

3. Vinny Testaverde 59.0

2. Chad Pennington 65.6

1. Brett Favre - 65.7

tsjc68
tsjc68

Andrea Bargnani, over the past two NBA seasons (the last one in Toronto and the one here):

Win Shares per 48 minutes: 0.35 (324th in the league)


That's right, according to Win Shares per 48 minutes played, there were THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-THREE PLAYERS more efficient than Andrea Bargnani (minimum 1,000 minutes played).


Some great NBA luminaries more efficient at contributing to wins than Andrea Bargnani:

Nate Wolters

Jason Maxiell

Robert Sacre

Travis Outlaw

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

Luke Babbitt

Ekpe Udoh

Cartier Martin

Mo Harkless

Festus Ezeli

Bismack Biyombo (no, seriously)

Nazr Mohammed

Metta World Peace (no, really, I'm not lying, even MWP posted a 0.79 WS/48)

Rashard Lewis

Jan Vesley (JAN FREAKING VESLEY)

Nando de Colo

Omri Cassipi

Damien Wilkins

Zaza Pachulia

Nick Calathes


Andrea Bargnani sucks, yo.

Bent
Bent moderator

@Joey Cimino What if they just move him to "NFL columnist" like the Daily News did with Manish but nothing actually changes?

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Joey Cimino

Your petition needs more ridicule for Cimini's lack of salary cap knowledge.


You can't be an expert on the Jets if you state in two consecutive offseasons that it will take more than 7M of cap room to sign a drafted class of rookies.  A statement that ignorant disqualifies you from being an expert.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent

Jets all-time leaders in completion percentage (MAXIMUM 500 attempts):


5. Brian Hansen - 100.0

4. Bob Gresham - 100.0

3. Bilal Powell - 100.0

2. Leon Washington - 100.0

1. Curtis Martin - 100.0

BDarc23
BDarc23

@Bent Honestly I am surprised Boomer is that good with the team he played on. 

r_in_ct
r_in_ct

@tsjc68 I'm not much of a basketball fan ... but the Knicks still have Bernard King, right? He's still good for like 50 a night, isn't he?

Monty
Monty

@tsjc68 I'm hoping that Phil is like Idzik in that the media wont see the moves he makes coming. We didn't see the chandler trade coming. We quietly, hugely upgraded the point guard spot.  Phil and fish are going to do a good job. Its going to be a fun five years..
Kukoc had a very similar reputation to Bargs until he found his way in the triangle offense. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @Joey Cimino

They should make Cimini the NASCAR columnist, so that he can claim that Hendrick Motorsports will need at to go at least 300mph to win the next race.

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se Namath would have had one if they played 16 games back then.  In fact, there's quite a lot of times where the QB averaged enough attempts per game to have 500 over the course of a full season, but ended up missing a start or two to fall just short.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@BDarc23 @Bent

How dare you impugn the pass-catching talents of Rob Moore.  HOW DARE YOU, SIR.

BDarc23
BDarc23

@Brendan @Bent After week 11 of the Favre debacle we all thought we were getting a Jets vs Giants Superbowl.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@r_in_ct @tsjc68

I'm still waiting for Anthony Bonner to come out of retirement and lace 'em back up.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Monty

Kukoc had a very similar reputation to Bargs until he found his way in the triangle offense. 


No.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Disgruntled Jets Fan @tsjc68

2014-2015 New York Knicks, sorted by career PER:

Carmelo Anthony, 21.2

Amaré Stoudamire, 20.6*

Jose Calderon, 17.2

Samuel Dalembert, 15.5

JR Smith, 15.4

Andrea Bargnani, 14.4

Cole Aldrich, 14.2

Pablo Prigioni, 13.0

Tim Hardaway, 12.7

Shannon Brown, 12.4

Jeremy Tyler, 11.1

Iman Shumpert, 10.5

Shane Larkin, 8.3

Cleanthony Early, --

Thanasis Antetokounmpo, --


(* I used Stoudamire's PER just with the Knicks instead of career, since it's obviously unfair to compare pre-injury STAT to post-injury STAT.  That being said, yes, STAT in New York has been far more efficient than given credit for.  He doesn't play often, but when he does, he's been pretty good.)


For reference sake:

Trevor Booker, 15.0


---------------


If we acquire Booker, we can expect to roll with a nine-man rotation of Calderon-JR-Melo-STAT-Dalembert-Shump-Hardaway-Booker-Early (with smatterings of Cole Aldrich, Jeremy Tyler, Shane Larkin, and Prigioni) and leave Bargs at the end of the bench where he belongs.

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 If he covered NASCAR the way he covered the Jets, it'd be at most a month before some pissed off driver goes after him with a tire iron. 

Brendan
Brendan

@BDarc23 They were 8-3 and just rolled over the Pats and Titans, I thought they could have beaten the '85 Bears. 

BDarc23
BDarc23

@tsjc68 @Monty Toni Kukoc was never a good NBA player. He was always hurt and always had very low shooting percentages for a forward. Did he rebound and defend?  Not in my recollection.

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 If they get Booker, Bargs is a glorified cheerleader. I like Booker's style, strong around the basket and is basically the anti-Bargs in terms of demeanor and testicle fortitude. 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Because they thought they'd get 2011 Bargs, not 2012 Bargs. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @tsjc68 In more "irrelevant information mined while doing TJB HOF research" from today, I discovered that the NFL released a 12-minute video to teams in 1988 about how they had to deal with the media and Mark Gastineau decided to apologize publicly to the media after watching it.

Bent
Bent moderator


@a57se @BDarc23 @Brendan @Bent A Subway Super Bowl was being talked about in some circles though (despite the fact you don't take the Subway to get from East Rutherford NJ to East Rutherford NJ.

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @BDarc23 I thought they were going nowhere after the Pats win because that exposed all their most obvious weaknesses.  The Titans win stunned me and I'll admit had me thinking I misjudged it and maybe we had a chance, before the last five games merely proved I was right all along.


If they could have got Jim Leonhard and Bart Scott six months earlier, they might have gone all the way.

Bent
Bent moderator

@BDarc23 @tsjc68 @Monty Kukoc was a GREAT player that chose to defer to Jordan and Pippen when he got to the NBA.  He could have done more than he did.  It wasn't that he "wasn't good" at all.


He wasn't as good as Sabonis but I'd probably consider him the second best Euro ever.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@BDarc23 @tsjc68 @Monty

Toni Kukoc was never a good NBA player. 


And yet, Andrea Bargnani makes Toni Kukoc look like Larry Bird.

harold
harold

@Monty @tsjc68 


No, because Toni played in the triangle from the moment he arrived in the NBA. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Monty @tsjc68

The only think Toni Kukoc and Andrea Bargnani have in common is that they're both tall, white, and European.


Toni Kukoc in Chicago was twice the player that Bargs was.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @tsjc68

Fun Fact:

Andrea Bargnani, career true-shooting percentage:

.533

Trevor Booker, career true-shooting percentage: 

.553

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @a57se

And because they thought that they could turn three awful players into one probably-awful-but-who-knows-maybe-he-can-be-better-with-Melo-creating-room-for-him awful player, and planned on supplementing the three-for-one player swap with nabbing Artest to add some defense and rebounding to balance out Bargs's shortcomings.


Again, it's a gamble that totally makes sense if you don't have to give up a first rounder to do it (and then it makes no sense whatsoever).

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 It's so funny how quickly that changes the dynamic. 

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Most of the fights are between two "good 'ol boys," I think it matters less who is saying it and more what is being said. 


They don't take kindly to that stuff from anyone, but if you have a New Yawk accent, it definitely adds a little bit of fuel to the fire. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @tsjc68 @Bent Maybe the AFL had better pass defenses.  Maybe the two leagues even had different rules at some stage?

Brendan
Brendan

@BDarc23 Yup. People were definitely talking that up big time. 10-1 Giants and 8-3 Jets after beating two of the top teams in the AFC. 

BDarc23
BDarc23

@Bent @BDarc23 @tsjc68 @Monty He was great in Europe.  In the NBA he was a huge disappointment.  When Jordan left in 98-99 Kukoc avg 18 ppt on 42% 37 mpg.  in 99-00 it was 18 on 38% and 36 mpg.  Those number are similar to Bargnani.  I'm not saying Bargnani is some guy of all star player but he is better than he is being made out.  Biggest bust of all time??? Give me a break.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @BDarc23 @tsjc68 @Monty

I'd love to see that "best Euros" list.


My top three of the top of my head are Dirk, Tony Parker, and Drazen Petrovic.

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 Toni Kukoc before Chicago was also twice the player that Bargs was pre-NBA. 

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 Yeah, but where those shots were taken matters. Bargs does a lot less work around the rim (which is one major reason I'm cool with bringing in Booker to take up his minutes.  

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @Bent @Brendan @tsjc68


Not necessarily.  As always, we'll have players from multiple eras.


First article is coming at 4:30pm ET

Brendan
Brendan

@Bent Weren't AFL teams exploring more explosive/downfield passing attacks first? 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@BDarc23 @Bent @tsjc68 @Monty

Toni Kukoc, career NBA WS/48 and PER:

.129, 17.3

Andrea Bargnani, career NBA WS/48 and PER: 

.059, 14.4


If you want to debate how good or not good Toni Kukoc is, that's fine.


Andrea Bargnani f#@%ing sucks, though, and he's not remotely as good of a player as Toni Kukoc, regardless of what label you assign to Kukoc.

Brendan
Brendan

@BDarc23 No one said that he's the biggest bust of all time. But he's definitely in Tier 2 of the worst #1 picks ever, imo. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Bent @BDarc23 @Monty This is actually causing me to think hard.  It was just an off the cuff comment, but that's an interesting debate.  The main issue is nobody in the US realizes how great Kukoc and Sabonis were because their NBA careers were after their best years were over.


If we extend beyond Europe, Oscar Schmidt is an interesting one to try and place too.


I agree Dirk is right up there and probably ahead of Kukoc.  I still won't put him above Sabonis though.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Ginobili is from Argentina. 


And Dirk is #1 imo. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @tsjc68

Yup.


Literally everything that Kukoc ever did professionally with a basketball is better than anything Andrea Bargnani has ever been.


Bargs probably thanks his lucky stars every day for the presence of Greg Oden, Michael Olowokandi, and Kwame Brown to keep the "biggest bust ever" stink off of him.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Brendan @tsjc68

Agreed.


You're getting a better shooter in Booker (because while you can make the argument that Bargs should be given credit for taking more difficult shots, I'd make the counterargument that Bargs should be docked for continuing to take more difficult shots that he clearly is not capable of knocking down with regularity) plus a better rebounder and defender. 

Brendan
Brendan

@Bent Was there only the one thread that had the fan vote? Will there be more of those types or was that to settle a final decision that was too close to call otherwise?

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @Bent I think that's a factor, yes.  Especially since those guys 57 mentioned were still well regarded despite the low %.


I guess it's like comparing pre-3 point line field goal percentages for the modern NBA era.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se Nah. They went 10-6 the year before (a bad 10-6) and won the SB, then missed the playoffs the year after when they went 8-8. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@BDarc23 @tsjc68 @Bent @Monty Yeah, we need to differentiate between


- Best European Player Ever; and

- Best NBA career for a European Player.


You could end up with guys like Saras Jasikeviscius in the first category.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @tsjc68 @BDarc23 @Monty

You won't put Dirk ahead of Sabonis?


That's a little crazy.  Even putting Sabonis's pre-NBA contributions in the mix, I still put Dirk above him.

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Brendan I wanna see the list of people who were lower than 324th.


Or is it just "the 76ers roster"?

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 Anthony Bennett is about one more dumpster fire season away from joining their ranks. 

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 His refusal to stop shooting threes is pretty incredible. He should be relegated to corner 3's and that's it. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @Bent @Brendan @tsjc68


Yes and no.  I will finish up with the defense before camp and then maybe do the offensive side of things as a separate project


The next part (Mo!) is well underway.  I've charted 10 of the games from 2012, but also need to chart some other things once that's done.  Hopefully at the weekend.

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @Bent


It had more to do with us wanting to wash our hands of the responbility haha.  


I think we'll do another fan vote next year, but we'll ask you to choose between three old-timers.  The rest of this year's class was selected by the committee.


When they're from different eras, the most recent guy has a slight advantage.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se That's like a historical version of the Favre/arm-punt joke. 


It's also what Johnny Football said to his coach when he had that ridiculously stupid, no-look bomb that went about 40 feet in the air (minimum) and miraculously got caught by his WR. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@BDarc23 @Brendan

I mentioned that he's close to being one of the biggest busts of all time, because he is.


Andrea Bargnani sucks at basketball.

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Bent @BDarc23 @Monty Sabonis is AMAZING (and this is based ALL on his pre-NBA stuff, he was a shell of the player he was in Europe by the time he came over).


Dirk's a better scorer, but Sabonis is so skilled.  Amazing passer and post player.

Brendan
Brendan

@a57se That was a mistake commonly made when he first came over. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent

http://bkref.com/tiny/ICYRe

Some of your highlights (lowlights?)


Avery Bradley (too soon?)

Shannon Brown

Michael Carter-Williams (face of the franchise!!!)

Norris Cole

Alexey Shved

Xavier Henry

Stephen "Cap'n Jack" Jackson

Tony Wroten

Mt. Vernon's own Ben Gordon (a negative WS/48)

Diante Garrett (dead last, #363)

Brendan
Brendan

@Bent Can't blame you for passing the buck on that decision, no matter who you choose there will be backlash. 


Works for me, a single fan vote would at least be a fun way to keep everyone involved in the process a bit, and it did lead to some good discussion about how recent players have a significant advantage, how a SB win would change things, etc. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @a57se I still can't get over the fact that Namath passed for 496 yards on FIFTEEN completions.

Bent
Bent moderator

@a57se @Brendan Right, the Pats definitely didn't lose to the Giants that year, because we eliminated them by losing to Miami.  Cassel was their QB that year.

BDarc23
BDarc23

@tsjc68 @BDarc23 @Brendan You have really run the gamut today of good points to ridiculous statements.  I can't stand the Bargnani trade but if you really think a guy with a 15 ppg career avg is one of the biggest busts of ALL TIME you are crazy. It's not that easy to score in the NBA.  He had solid or better years 2009 to 2012.  How does that even compare to Oden, Olowkandi and a ton of other top picks over the years who did nothing.

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Bent


Bradley doesn't produce, but he's a great perimeter defender.  You don't generate stats by having that as your strength.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@brendan @tsjc68

Steve Novak is also a poor defensive player and it is fairly reasonable to predict that substituting Bargnani for Novak won’t have much of an effect on the Knick defense. What’s troubling is the idea that Bargnani may not fit into the offense as successfully as Novak did during his time in New York.

The contrast between the two players’ number of corner-3 attempts and their success on spot up opportunities demonstrates how Novak is more capable of serving as a complementary role player in a successful offense. According to Synergy Sports, Novak scored 1.28 points per possession on spot up opportunities in 12-13, which ranked him 14th best in the league. Bargnani, on the other hand, scored 0.92 points per possession on spot ups, ranking him 182nd in the league. This is particularly important for the Knicks because spot up attempts accounted for a large portion of their offense and the team ranked second in the league with 1.06 points per possession on spot ups. Novak’s proficiency as a spot up shooter can be attributed partially to his accuracy on corner 3’s, a shot that is a crucial part of many successful NBA offenses in today’s game. Bargnani’s discomfort as a spot up shooter is evidenced by the fact that Bargnani only took 8 corner 3’s during the 2012-13 season. While Bargnani attempted eight corner 3’s in the 35 games that he played in (0.23 corner 3’s per game), Novak attempted 127 corner 3’s in his 81 games (1.57 corner 3’s per game).

Novak is not only more comfortable from a key area of the court, but he is also simply a better shooter. Novak shot 42.5 percent from behind the arc in 2012-13 and his career three-point percentage is 43.3 percent. On the contrary, Bargnani shot 30.9 percent on three-point attempts in 12-13 and his career three-point percentage is 36.1 percent.

All in all, it seems that Novak’s game is more appropriate for the current Knicks' offense than Bargnani. That’s unsettling for Knicks fans bearing in mind the fact that Novak’s salary is approximately one third of Bargnani’s and the Knicks also surrendered a future first round pick to acquire Bargnani.

http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/229656/How-The-Andrea-Bargnani-Trade-Compounds-New-Yorks-Biggest-Problem

Brendan
Brendan

@tsjc68 God he's the worst. Seems like he could definitely hit it from that one side of the floor, at least. 


I don't like laughing when people get hurt, but I couldn't help it with Bargs. The softest big in the league tries to get physical and immediately gets hurt. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@brendan @a57se


Between week seven and 14, Geno only had 533 yards.  It took him 49 completions.


Against the Colts in 2012, Sanchez had 11 completions.  If his next four passes were all 99-yard touchdowns, he'd still have been 18 yards behind Namath.

Brendan
Brendan

@Bent Hahaha that's so insane. Talk about all or nothing. 

tsjc68
tsjc68

@BDarc23

I can't stand the Bargnani trade but if you really think a guy with a 15 ppg career avg is one of the biggest busts of ALL TIME you are crazy.


Getting 15 PPG by chucking up bad shots on a bad team devoid of actual scorers or any hope of winning isn't that impressive.  At all.

Bent
Bent moderator

@tsjc68 @Bent @BDarc23 @Monty The level was very high at that time.  Guys like Radja and Kukoc came over and produced at a pretty high level.


Sabonis would have been one of the top five players in the NBA if he came over at his peak and found the right situation, I really believe that.  Heck, he was almost an allstar even after he lost his wheels.



Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @Bent At least I didn't mention that the previous year was when the Pats went 16-0.

BDarc23
BDarc23

@tsjc68 @BDarc23 I didn't say it was particularly impressive. I'm saying it means he isn't even close to the biggest bust of all time.  You are again being unfair because he had Bosh one year, Demar Derozan and Calderon in all of his Toronto years

tsjc68
tsjc68

@Bent @tsjc68 @BDarc23 @Monty

I'm totally good with putting Sabonis in the top 5, I'm just struggling to put him above Dirk Freaking Nowitzki.


I will acknowledge, though, that had Sabonis come over as a rookie he'd definitely have been in the conversation.

tsjc68
tsjc68

@BDarc23 @tsjc68

For the record, you can't really say


"How does that even compare to Oden, Olowkandi and a ton of other top picks over the years who did nothing?" 


when my original comment was, and I quote, 


"Bargs probably thanks his lucky stars every day for the presence of Greg Oden, Michael Olowokandi, and Kwame Brown to keep the "biggest bust ever" stink off of him."


I didn't say "he's the biggest bust ever", I said "If not for these bigger busts, he'd be considered one of the biggest busts ever".

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @Bent Oh man that's awesome!


I'd never seen that.  Hahahaha.

Brendan
Brendan

@Bent I love how the security guys do nothing to stop the players from getting pelted. 

Bent
Bent moderator

@Brendan @Bent I knew what was coming but that was still awesome.  Haha.


Had you seen that before or did it just emerge?